|Date||January 02—03, 2010|
|Casus belli||57th launch preemptive strike on BC|
|Preceded by|| |
|Succeeded by|| |
| || |
The 57th-BC War was a short, small-scale war between the 57th Overlanders and the Browncoats and their allies. 57th declared pre-emptive war after having accepted intel from a disgruntled Browncoats member during the TPF War showing that the Browncoats were voting on aggressively attacking 57th alongside Browncoats' then-OPD partner Cult of Justitia.
While this war lasted only one day, it cannot be truly understood without a knowledge of the tensions that had gone on for years between many of the combatants, especially Veneke, Captain of 57th, Asriel Belacqua and Nintenderek of Browncoats, and Schattenmann of Cult of Justitia.
All four, as well as many members of Browncoats and 57th Overlanders besides, were members of the first Browncoats. Schattenmann and Nintenderek joined after the disbandment of Purge, while Veneke and Asriel were already members. Within a few weeks, Veneke and Schattenmann developed a bitter mutual dislike, Veneke having put Schattenmann on trial for expulsion for shooting his mouth off at the CIS Senator for the Black sphere. Later, Veneke and Asriel left Browncoats to found Hegemony of Periphery States, drawing disdain from remaining Browncoats including Schattenmann and Nintenderek. Within a few weeks of that incident, Schattenmann became a greater object of Asriel and Veneke's hate when his BDC-BC War/The Shadow Conspiracy failed, effectively destroying Browncoats; Veneke also blamed Nintenderek for the scheme despite his exclusion from the planning. HPS later changed its name to 57th Overlanders.
Though Veneke and many other Overlanders maintain their dislike for Schattenmann, Asriel, Nintenderek, and Schattenmann have made amends and come to an understanding of each other. Several months after 57th's creation, Asriel and Nintenderek re-created Browncoats (2nd), and Schattenmann's Cult of Justitia immediately signed and ODP with the new Browncoats; however, Veneke and 57th Lieutenant Lord Panda virulently opposed the alliance's reformation. 57th also accuses Browncoats of member-poaching a longtime friend of Asriel's. 57th continues to spurn Browncoats by maintaining ownership of the #browncoats channel as well as taking the original Browncoats' forum offline. Both 57th and Browncoats also compete in their Firefly television series theme.
The Question of "Aggression"Edit
Nemesis in turn invited Cult of Justitia to enter at the same time via their optional aggression clause. Learning that the presumed target was 57th Overlanders, Schattenmann notified Browncoats. Reasoning that, due to their small size, the entry of Browncoats through their ODP with CoJ would be negligible, Schattenmann suggested that Browncoats upgrade their treaty to include optional aggression so that Nemesis, CoJ, and Browncoats might all declare simultaneously. At the time, Nemesis had around 30 nations, while 57th Overlanders had just over 50; together, the three alliances would have nearly as many nations as 57th Overlanders.
Asriel and Nintenderek supported the plan and put the idea of an upgrade before the membership to gauage their opinion via a straw poll. The plan had marginal support; however, StraightUpNoBull (SUNB), Browncoats' Minister of Defense, took issue with the idea of upgrading the treaty to allow for a simultaneous entry, and announced his resignation. Before leaving, SUNB took screenshots of the membership poll, but not of the government-level discussions, and then passed the screenshots on to 57th Overlanders.
The problem with 57th's war begins with the screenshots they were given. In the membership poll that SUNB spied away to 57th, Nintenderek did not clearly explain the process by which Browncoats would enter the war. Rather than asking "should Browncoats upgrade its treaty with CoJ to the inclusion of an optinal aggression clause in order that we may attack 57th at the same time as CoJ if CoJ and Nemesis counter-declare on 57th?"—the treaty upgrade being the pivotal point—Nintenderek said: ". . . if CoJ does declare on [57th], they've asked for our help . . ." continuing, "I think we should defend [Cult of Justitia] even if it's an defense treaty and we would be going in aggressively." Because the member poll did not adequately convey that the treaty would be upgraded to an ODOAP to allow for Browncoats' legal entry into the war at the same time as CoJ, and because SUNB in turn only presented that flawed conveyance to 57th Overlanders, Veneke and his government in turn assumed that Browncoats intended to bandwagon 57th Overlanders in a spiteful manner.
Despite the problems in the intelligence that 57th received, the address by Nintnderek to the Browncoats membership makes clear that Browncoats only intended to go to war if Nemesis and CoJ went to war, and further that 57th Overlanders was not the certain target, but was only the anticipated target. Nintenderek's address as provided to 57th clearly states "if the 57th doesn't declare in defense of their allies first, then we won't be hitting them with CoJ and Nemesis."
Regardless, of the information that Asriel, Browncoats Prime Minister, was against the upgrade, and the high level of treaty-cascading needed for the scenario to actually occur, 57th decided to interpret the very limited amount of intelligence available to them as a rock-solid offensive by Browncoats—an 8-nation alliance—against themselves, and to pre-emptively attack Browncoats. Ironically, just a few weeks later TOP and IRON would repeat 57th's blunder.
Initial Peace TalksEdit
Peace talks were convened within minutes of the counter-declarations on 57th Overlanders. Browncoats offered very light terms, but 57th's then-Lieutenant (second in command) refused, claiming that 57th would eradicate Browncoats. Ivan Moldavi attended as a Brown advocate despite NSO's often-public dislike for 57th.
Session Start: Sun Jan 03 01:27:45 2010
Session Ident: #kashyyyk
[01:27] * Now talking in #kashyyyk
[01:27] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Kodiak
[01:27] <daggarz[Nemesis]> jerrywagner from COIN
[01:27] <daggarz[Nemesis]> should be kept in the loop
[01:27] <daggarz[Nemesis]> if you could query himn
[01:28] <Nintenderek> Okay, now this can begin
[01:28] <Kodiak[57th]> I've got him on the line now.
[01:28] <Lennox> Guys we need to actually do something here...
[01:28] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> look heres how i see it
[01:28] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Alright
[01:28] <daggarz[Nemesis]> go ahead legion
[01:29] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> you guys attacked BC, you knew we would attack you t
[01:30] <Kodiak[57th]> We had hoped you would, but were prepared for the situation.
[01:30] <Kodiak[57th]> *wouldn't
[01:30] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> when attacked you said youd bring in allies and if you did that wed bring in them
[01:30] <Kodiak[57th]> Sorry.
[01:30] * Cheyenne has joined #kashyyyk
[01:30] * Moldavi has joined #kashyyyk
[01:30] <Kodiak[57th]> Huh?
[01:30] <daggarz[Nemesis]> howdy modalvi, seems we always end up being on opposite sides
[01:30] <Kodiak[57th]> When you threatened to attack, we said that it would provoke a response from our allies.
[01:31] <Moldavi> I wasn't aware we are on opposite sides here.
[01:31] <daggarz[Nemesis]> oh you know what i meant
[01:31] <daggarz[Nemesis]> sorry
[01:31] <daggarz[Nemesis]> also
[01:31] * Cheyenne has left #kashyyyk
[01:31] <daggarz[Nemesis]> which alliance does Cheyenne come from?
[01:31] <daggarz[Nemesis]> nevermind
[01:31] <Nintenderek> Cheyenne is NSO, but he left so I guess it doesn't matter in this particular convo
[01:32] <daggarz[Nemesis]> alright to the crux of it is. 57th overlanders attacked BC
[01:32] <Nintenderek> With information they got from spying
[01:32] <Schattenmann> ^
[01:32] <daggarz[Nemesis]> which might I add isnt the first time
[01:32] <Schattenmann> Spying is an aggressive act of war
[01:32] <daggarz[Nemesis]> as they recieved intelligence on CoJ and Nemesis previously
[01:32] <Moldavi> I am just jumping in here so let me know if I have anything incorrect. Basically I have been told that BC, LoSS and Nem were planning to hit 57th. NSO advised 57th not to attack BC and they did anyway.
[01:33] <Moldavi> And here we are
[01:33] <daggarz[Nemesis]> We were not going to hit 57th
[01:33] <daggarz[Nemesis]> in the war that just ended
[01:33] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> LOSS never had any intentions of attacking 57th
[01:33] <Nintenderek> Yes, there were plans at one time, but they were canceled even before we knew the war was going to end
[01:33] <Kodiak[57th]> Wasn't spying. Your traitor ran to us with information without us even asking.
[01:33] <Moldavi> I am just sharing what I have been told. As I said, we advised against aggressive action.
[01:33] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> you didnt have to accept
[01:33] <daggarz[Nemesis]> thats irrelevant now anyway
[01:33] <Kodiak[57th]> But you guys can argue about that amongst yourselves, I couldn't care less how you choose to redefine terms.
[01:33] <Nintenderek> So you yourself admit you accepted information from someone you yourself call a traitor?
[01:34] <Kodiak[57th]> True that daggarz.
[01:34] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Modalvi, what happened was that IAA was meant to attack VA in the war that just ended. 57th were a likely target to counter, so we prepared to counter them.
[01:34] <Kodiak[57th]> I admit that somebody from your alliance gave us information, without solicitation, warning us of an attack. You can hold me to the record on that.
[01:34] <Schattenmann> Accepting info is spying. All Vox did was accept info, and it was always spying
[01:35] <Nintenderek> You also called him a BC traitor. I'm holding you to your word on that as well
[01:35] <Moldavi> So, at this point, what is sought from all parties? I have talked to my current counterpart in GATO and he and I would be willing to offer protection to both 57th and BC in the event a peaceful solution can be remedied.
[01:35] <Kodiak[57th]> Look, are you guys here to negotiate, or to convince me of your righteousness in all this?
[01:35] <daggarz[Nemesis]> negotiate what? You attacked BC
[01:35] <Schattenmann> We don't need to convince anyone of our righteousness, it's given.
[01:35] <Nintenderek> I'm not sure why the hell I'm here, I was just pulled in here
[01:35] <daggarz[Nemesis]> with a reason that is extremely laughable
[01:36] <Kodiak[57th]> Right, there's no value in this clearly.
[01:36] <Kodiak[57th]> This is a room for you to bitch in.
[01:36] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> kodiak
[01:36] <Voodoo> Guys, we're here for peace
[01:36] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> wait
[01:36] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> listen im stating the obvious were not all best friends here and we know it
[01:36] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> but remain civil
[01:36] <Moldavi> I do know that 57th also has treaty partners that will come to their defense so unless everyone here likes to glow (and that is not a threat from NSO at all) then we need to find a middle ground.
[01:37] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Alright well
[01:37] <Kodiak[57th]> Actually, yes, speaking about glow...
[01:37] <daggarz[Nemesis]> give me one second to talk to Nintenderek
[01:37] <Kodiak[57th]> Nukes have already been fired.
[01:37] <Lennox> I suggest we either aim for peace, or, keep the conflict extremely limited
[01:37] <Schattenmann> Moldavi, 57th's treaty partners would not be "defending" them, they'd be complicit in their aggression
[01:37] <Lennox> Nukes couldn't have been fired yet
[01:37] <Schattenmann> ^
[01:37] <daggarz[Nemesis]> how could they have been fired. 24 hours must pass before nukes can be fired
[01:37] <Moldavi> Regardless of the semantics, the result is the same
[01:37] <Nintenderek> Kodiak[57th], if you read our charter, you would have expected nukes
[01:37] <Lennox> Right, so
[01:38] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Alright. The Offer from BC is Surrender and Reperations
[01:38] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Nemesis supports this
[01:38] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> LOSS does too
[01:38] <Kodiak[57th]> Does that come with an apology?
[01:38] <daggarz[Nemesis]> The idea is that 57th surrender to BC
[01:38] <Kodiak[57th]> lol
[01:38] <Nintenderek> If you guys want to apologize, yes
[01:38] <Moldavi> Reperations? It is an 8 nation alliance that has taken one round of regular war, how much damage could have been done? I am just curious, I have no idea
[01:39] <Nintenderek> I have no idea as well, however the reparations wouldn't be high, and would be very easy for the 57th to pay
[01:39] <daggarz[Nemesis]> So because they are smaller
[01:39] <daggarz[Nemesis]> they deserve less
[01:39] <Moldavi> Pragmatically speaking, yes
[01:39] <Nintenderek> I would say around 3mil per nation, not counting mind since I made more off the war then any of their reps could pay
[01:39] <Lennox> That would make sense ys
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Nemesis will give white peace
[01:40] <Schattenmann> Frankly, yes, between the cost of the toys, the cost of the damage, the spying, Browncoats most certainly deserves reps
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> and i think i speak for CoJ and LoSS
[01:40] <Nintenderek> daggarz[Nemesis], it does make sense. As I have stated, 21mil to Browncoats sounds reasonable to me
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> yes
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> if they payt reps
[01:40] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> yep
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> to BC
[01:40] <Lennox> 21mil to BC and white peace from the others?
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> and surrender
[01:40] <Moldavi> Well, I am not here to negotiate on behalf of 57th and neither is anyone else in NSO. I came to offer our protection to both Brown alliances because that is our primary concern, security of the sphere, in this context
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> yes
[01:40] <daggarz[Nemesis]> it would be a surrender to all our forces however
[01:41] <daggarz[Nemesis]> admirable Modalvi
[01:41] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> BC already has protection
[01:41] <Schattenmann> If your concern is for secrty of the sphere you're welcome to OAP CoJ so you can attack 57th too
[01:41] <Kodiak[57th]> The 57th will not be surrendering tonight, gentlemen.
[01:41] <Moldavi> That would defeat the purpose
[01:42] <Nintenderek> Kodiak[57th], that means there will be no peace tonight
[01:42] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> modalvi you said you advised them not to attack right?
[01:42] <Nintenderek> And we all know how that will effect the brown sphere as a whole
[01:43] <Lennox> Why dont you all surrender to NSO?
[01:43] <Lennox> And everyone goes home happy
[01:43] <Lennox> :)
[01:43] <daggarz[Nemesis]> If 57th will not surrender tonight
[01:43] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> BC has stated what it wants
[01:43] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> what does 57th hope to obtain by this war
[01:43] <daggarz[Nemesis]> then peace talks go no further
[01:43] <Schattenmann> At this point BC, Nem, CoJ and LoSS have made this easy: 57th Spied on BC and CoJ (the screenshots are in their damned DoW). If 57th admits their wrongdoing, pays up for damage, they can walk away
[01:44] <Schattenmann> If 57th won't take the smart road, then we can go down the hard one another day
[01:44] <Kodiak[57th]> I'll make a note of your terms, pass them along to my Captain. And we can talk about the smart road and long road tomorrow. There will be no surrendering of the 57th tonight.
[01:44] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> KODIAK
[01:45] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> what did you guys hope to obtain by attacking
[01:45] <Nintenderek> Kodiak[57th], if you don't take my offer tonight, my offer could be a little bit harsher tomorrow.
[01:45] <Moldavi> Yes legion-x, NSO advised no aggressive action
[01:45] <daggarz[Nemesis]> I agree with Nintenderek
[01:46] <Nintenderek> I didn't have time to do math before my offer tonight. I will before tomorrow
[01:46] <Kodiak[57th]> We seek to end the alliance, BC2, that schemes to attack us.
[01:46] <Kodiak[57th]> We continue to seek that goal.
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> Wait
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> seriously
[01:47] <Kodiak[57th]> We were perfectly happy to coexist until this information came to like.
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> you want to end an alliance
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> May i remind you
[01:47] <Kodiak[57th]> Well, technically we want to end the people that make up that alliance.
[01:47] <Moldavi> Ah
[01:47] <Moldavi> I was not aware of that.
[01:47] <legion-x[LOSSTrium]> thats unacceptable
[01:47] <Moldavi> NSO does not now, nor will it ever, support seeking an "end" to an alliance.
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> This discussion is over
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> until 57th
[01:47] <Nintenderek> I just gave you the best damn surrender terms you'll ever hear about outside of white peace and you want to end our alliance?
[01:47] <daggarz[Nemesis]> wake up to themselves
[01:47] <Moldavi> Lennox, please step out of the room.
[01:47] * daggarz[Nemesis] has left #kashyyyk
[01:48] <Voodoo> My business is done here.
[01:48] * Lennox has left #kashyyyk
[01:48] <Voodoo> Good night guys, hope you have a pleasant tomorrow
[01:48] * Voodoo has left #kashyyyk
[01:48] * Kodiak[57th] has left #kashyyyk
[01:48] <Nintenderek> I believe mine is as well. If anyone wants to contact me, they know how. Until then, it was nice chatting with all of you
[01:48] <Moldavi> My apologies gentlemen
[01:49] <Schattenmann> Wiedersehen
Session Close: Sun Jan 03 01:49:03 2010
One criticism about the attack was its timing, since the initial DoW came about one minute after the white peace declaration in the TPF War. This effectively negated the 57th casus belli as the 57th could no longer be ambushed. Accordingly the war ended less than 18 hours after it began, with all sides announcing white peace.
- 57th. Overlanders DoW against Browncoats
- CoJ and Nemesis DoW against 57th. Overlanders
- LoSS' DoW against 57th. Overlanders
- End of Hostilities
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