Talk: Talvisota War

Hooligans Nations

Out curiosity, did the former hooligans' nations formally join SRA or did they attempt to hide on the AA?   Rogal  talk   21:49,5/5/2013 (UTC)

"under the assumption" it says right in the article that 5 members of hooligans joined SRA before the DoW. assumption should not be there. linking to section since the CB in infobox would be too long.

Assumption belongs, actually. 5 nations joined SRA prior to hostilities. After war broke out, R&R assumed that SRA was a sub-group of Hooligans, in the same manner that mushquaeda is a subset of MK. A not unreasonable assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. The assumption was wrong -- SRA had no interest in war with R&R. "See prelude" is fine, as it explains it well enough and you'll do what you want anyway.

As far as your curiosity is concerned, 6 joined for various reasons. All fled to "none" and back to Hooligans when R&R attacked because they felt they'd put me in a bad spot. I found out at least one planned to go back all along. I only got one back. Walsh the Beloved (talk • contribs) 05:54, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

How were they under the assumption that SRA was a sub-group of hooligans? Do you have a log where R&R gov say they "assumed" you "were a sub-group of hooligans"? I don't think so but I'll ask them when I see them on IRC next, I think they were just attacking former hooligans' nations who were hiding from the war. It's along the same lines as when Umbrella nations left their AA, they were still attacked by the Equilibrium coalition regardless of where they went.   Rogal  talk   06:57,5/9/2013 (UTC)

As a matter of fact I do have logs. With ShamWOW, who answered the phone when I asked for gov't on the IRC. Fortunately, they actually use the word "assumption".

Have a look for yourself, from 2-22-13: http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc427/potbanger/ShamWOWlogs_zps0306ecef.png

Of course, I had also had logs that clearly demonstrated that GPF was calling in Argent on me during the last war, but you chose to say their entry was "disputed". I don't really have time for this when you are the mod and will only allow in the wiki what you want to allow anyway. Most of this is dealt with in the original DOW and peace thread. Have you read them? It's what people said AT THE TIME, in their own words.

DOW: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/115613-talvisota/

1. Note that I made a point of stating I was not a Hooligan AA? There was a reason for that.

2. Somewhere down the line, EGO Freaky states he's convinced they hopped AA's like the rest of competence, or they're deserters -- either way, he doesn't feel bad.

3. Later in the thread, I POSTED THE WIKI ENTRY SO EGO COULD VET IT. He said it was fine, but wanted me to add that no one was attacked who had been in the AA longer than 2 days (or something like that, I don't have the time to cite it for you when you can read it yourself).

THE PEACE THREAD: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/115699-peace-of-ass/?hl=walsh

1. For God's sake I think R&R lists the war as "White Peace" on their own wiki entry, I'm not certain why you felt the need to change it here. I don't enjoy "ceasefire" as it makes it seem as it the shooting was stopped but the animosity remained. I thought "white peace" was the term for two alliances stopping fighting when neither surrendered (Ego noted I didn't surrender somewhere in that thread). As stated, I have absolutely NO animosity toward R&R. Ego and ShamWOW were classy to deal with, and their members fought honorably. I really feel as though this was a tremendous misunderstanding, and I can see EXACTLY why R&R felt as they did.

2. Included in the log above is the diplomatic solution I offered prior to declaring war, in case you doubted that as well. Somehow, when ShamWOW gave the logs to Ego, that was not included. Sounds unlikely, but there it is in black and white and I have no reason to doubt Ego. It was the eventual peace settlement, which makes it more believeable (much as the collapse of Hooligan Gov't and recent reorg under many of the people who jumped to mine makes my side of the story more believeable).

But this is not about believability, it is about a fair and honest wiki entry. I made it as fair and honest as I could, and R&R was fine with it. Tell you what -- ask EGO FREAKY to change anything he wants in that wiki if he feels is unfair. I trust that guy to do the right thing. Any change he makes is okay with me -- and he and I were there at the time. You were not. When you have no knowledge of the substance (and really only 2-3 people do in all of CN), maybe you should limit your corrections to grammar.

Walsh the Beloved (talk • contribs) 22:06, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

NPOV tag

"The neutrality of this article is disputed or is often the target for biased comments." Didputed by who, or what comments? I believe that all issues relevant to the cause and prosecution of the conflict were dealt with, and that for each issue multiple perspectives were addressed. So, apparently, does Ego Freaky, who was on the other side in the conflict. Unless Ego is complaining (which I would be veryItalic text interested in addressing), or I am complaining (the only other party in the conflict), I'm not certain who has any stance to complain, as there are only two parties who can verify that this article accurately represents what happened.

Please direct me specifically to an issue that: 1. Went unaddressed in the article, and is vital to the understanding of this conflict. OR 2. Was addressed from only one perspective. OR 3. Is not verified by logs, statements on the OWF, or in-game actions. Walsh the Beloved (talk • contribs) 19:05, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

From reading the entire thing its evident the article is written from the POV of SRA and not a neutral point of view, thats all. Some articles have been tagged as biased for years, meh. It's more of an awareness to the reader that the article isn't from a NPOV. —  RogalDorn   02:06, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'd like the tag removed. Should be a simple task: since it is "evident the article is written from the POV of SRA and not a neutral point of view," all you need to do is cite that evidence and I'll fix it up. Again, I have to assume that the evidence will consist of:

• Issues favorable to R&R or unfavorable to SRA that went unaddressed.

OR

• Issues addressed from only one perspective

OR

• Language that seems to favor SRA or disfavor R&R.

Thanks, Walsh the Beloved (talk • contribs) 18:08, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Article Text Sandbox

Let's make this easy: Below is the text of the article. I color coded the text as follows:

• BLACK - Neutral text or text for which there is objective verification (OWF, logs, etc.)
• CRIMSON - Text which supports POV of SRA
• BLUE - Text which supports POV of R&R

Note that in almost all cases, the POV of any particular side is prefaced with text that indicates the POV, such as "The Red Asses contended..." or "R&R believed.." No qualifiers on the veracity of either POV is proffered.

Perhaps you could color the text in GREEN or some other color where you think I have failed in this regard. Walsh the Beloved (talk • contribs) 18:54, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

The Talvisota War was a conflict between R&R and the micro-alliance Screaming Red Asses. Although there was no formal DoW, R&R opened hostilities on February 21, 2013 by attacking three nations on the SRA AA. SRA formally recognized a state of war on February 26, 2013. The war was entitled Talvisota by the Red Asses due to its similarity to the 1939 war of the same name, in which the Soviet Union attacked a heavily outnumbered Finland pre-emptively, fearing they would provide safe haven for German forces.

Prelude to War

R&R was a member of the Equilibrium (war coalition) in the Equilibrium War, and had been fighting for a month when Hooligans declared war on them in defense of GATO on February 21.

The night before that declaration, five members of Hooligans joined the Red Ass AA, bringing total membership to six (the previous high of SRA membership was two). After the Hooligans DoW, R&R began attacks on former Hooligan nations flying the Red Ass AA. Although there was no formal DoW by R&R, they acknowledged these attacks on the OWF in the Hooligans DoW thread, their president, EgoFreaky,stating "Oh by the way, you seemed to have misplaced a few nations.. Don't worry though, we found them for you :)". Casus Belli

R&R cited two reasons for attacking the Red Asses: first, they didn't recognize the sovereignty of the AA, believing that the SRA AA simply a Hooligans AA under another name. This practice was not uncommon among the Competence Coalition side of the Equilibrium War, with many Non Grata members flying the Poison Clan, SLCB and Team Rocket AA's that had long before merged into Non-Grata. Second, R&R assumed that SRA might be simply providing a safe haven for Hooligans members to avoid war before returning to Hooligans to fight.

The Red Asses did not concur, pointing out that they had been a sovereign AA for over 230 days, and were not simply a Hooligans sub-AA, although founder Walsh the Beloved was a former Hooligan. SRA also felt the attacks were not politically or diplomatically justified, whether R&R's assumptions were true or not: no Hooligans member joined SRA after hostilities commenced between Hooligans and R&R, nor had any nation flying the Red Ass AA had returned to Hooligans prior to the R&R offensive against SRA. No nation in SRA had sent aid of any kind to Hooligans. The Red Ass position was that since no alliance hopping, aid or other act of war had been committed against R&R by any SRA member, and no diplomacy had taken place to determine SRA's intentions, that the attacks by R&R against SRA members were unprovoked.

Talvisota War Screen

Walsh the Beloved made a diplomatic mission to R&R on the IRC on February 22, 2013, which resulted in a temporary suspension of attacks. However, R&R renewed their attacks over the following three days (although at no time was any SRA member who had been on the AA for more than two days attacked).

On February 26, 2013, the Screaming Red Asses formally recognized hostilities with R&R. The Red Asses did not perceive their actions to be a part of the Equilibrium War nor did they consider themselves a part of the Competence Coalition; R&R concurred. Public opinion, however, was divided on the issue.

The War R&R's initial offensive targeted only those Red Asses who were former Hooligans and had been on the Red Ass AA for two days or less. After the initial failure of diplomacy and the official recognition of hostilities, there were only two members left of the SRA AA: Walsh the Beloved and Dan Sherratt. The other members had return to the Hooligans AA, or in some cases, none. At this point, both R&R and SRA recognized them as Hooligans. R&R responded to the SRA counter-offensive in a measured fashion, instead of using overwhelming force. Fighting was spirited but civil. Peace discussions were underway within two days of the official recognition of hostilities.

White Peace An amicable cessation of hostilities was announced on March 2, 2013. In it, R&R agreed to cease attacks against all current members of the Screaming Red Ass alliance, and the Red Asses agreed that if any current member entered the Equilibrium War on the side of the "Competence Coalition" it would be considered an act of war against R&R. Ironically, this was the initial agreement proposed to R&R in the original diplomatic mission undertaken by Walsh the Beloved, but a technical glitch prevented it from being forwarded to R&R government.

OWF Links

• Feburary 21, 2013 - Hooligans declare war with RnR
• Feburary 21, 2013 - R&R alludes to attacks on SRA in Holligans DoW thread
• Feburary 26, 2013 - Screaming Red Asses recognize a state of war with R&R
• March 2, 2013 - Peace of Ass announcement