User talk:Lol pie/archive 2

USN Flag
Just wondering why you reverted the USN flag to their old one. Please let me know on my talk page. Thanks, MvP Michael von Preußen

Military Command of the New Pacific Order
My I ask why you've allowed a wiki member to remove several clearly stated and understood facts about one war under the Military Command page?

These were definitive, well based and confirmed with a clearly stated source and yet they were removed, and now the page has been barred from access to anyone, with any truth within it removed and altered. User:Jinman 10 January 2009
 * I agree with Jinman here, and furthermore believe that Semi-protection here is against the Protected page guidelines:

When should it not be used? Semi-protection should not be used: * As a response to regular content disputes, since it may restrict some editors and not others (see the protection policy for how to deal with this);

Michael von Preußen 00:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Jinman
Can you please ask/tell/force Jinman to stop vandalising the NPO wiki entries. He is attempting to hide his vandalism behind a rather shoddy veil of 'neutrality' (don't they all), but his veil is so weak that it is forced to use a complete misreading (not even a misinterpretation, I explicitly state the opposite) of one of my [essays | http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Great_Patriotic_War_and_You (presumably under the assumption that no one would read such a tomb to find out) and from there is forced to try and pretend that I am not the author (Vladimir) so that his misreading doesn't fall straight through the floor when I contradict him on it. It has gotten beyond absurd. The articles he is obsessively vandalising include: Francograd, Military Command of the New Pacific Order, and GATO-1V War.

Thank you, Vladimir Soviestan 16:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I object.
 * I have repeatedly pointed out that my alterations are based upon fact and belief supported by evidence and I have given examples of actual vandalism in the past which has apparently been ignored. Furthermore, I have not removed any information from any order page but added to it:
 * In the Francograd page I pointed out that the Lady Pacifica statue had been destroyed and that there had been no word upon any rebuilding efforts, this also contained a link to the page I was referring to and all of the previous information about the Lady Pacifica statue which has been added was left unaltered.
 * In the Military Command of the New Pacific Order, I have added that the InFANtile war is ongoing and that the GATO-1V war is disputed along with reasons as to why it can be viewed as such, these reasons have been changing as I gain more information upon the thread I refer to and the reasons as to why Pacifican players regard the war as being disputed. All other information has not been left unchanged.
 * In the GATO-1V war page all I have done is once again point out how the war can be viewed as being disputed. The result of the war, GATO’s surrender, remains the same and I have left all other information unaltered. I also wish to point out here that the GATO-1V war page is not an NPO entry.
 * My views upon his thread have (as mentioned in the Military Command statement) changed over time, and while some are in conflict with elements of Vladimir’s essay, I am giving my points as to why they are and as to why these elements are subjective to debate. I have also attempted to reason my points with this man but he continues to apparently misunderstand my train of thought along with my reasons and points.
 * I wish to finish by pointing out that I have stated why I believe that he may not be Vladimir, partially due to the lack of solid evidence of this and also several of the actions and wordings of Soviestan’s works.


 * For more information I recommend that you visit these talk pages

yours sincerely, --Jinman 18:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Once again, I must agree with Jinman. Much as I support both the Orders, Jinman's edits are neutral and his arguments make sense. Michael von Preußen 03:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

"im sorry but i don't see how it is disputed. your evidence just seems to me to be an attempt to take a shot at the NPO" - Lol Pie

As you wish, but I assure you that if this were an actual attempt to take a ‘pot shot’ at the NPO, I would have used more historic references, specific names would have been mentioned relating to certain events and more effort would have undoubtedly been made to show the New Pacific Order and it’s allies in a far worse light. All I was attempting to point out comparisons within the facts and events of the two wars which I believed you had overlooked, but if you belive that I am wrong then I shall not question you in this matter.

One question however, am I also to assume that this is relate to my edits within the Outer Heaven Inc. page? --Jinman 23:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, not at all actually. Didn't look at that until after. Lol pie 23:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This user continues to vandalise the Francograd page on the grounds that you only explicitly told him to stop vandalising the NPO Military Command page. Of course his reasoning for doing it is the same as before and his logic is just as asinine (and just as massively open to abuse) as before.  Another word to stop this annoyance would be much appreciated.  And apologies for all this trouble. Soviestan 01:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

"This user" continues to present an event within the history of Francograd, as I have clearly listed a link to the event itself and also the fact that the New Pacific Order’s government has not made any comments or apparent efforts to rebuild it. The link shows the actual event taking place and also the recognition of this action by several players’ posts within the thread itself.

This is clear evidence of the action taking place and I base my logic upon the very clear notation of the actual event. Should the New Pacific Order post a thread noting the completion or beginning of the rebuilding of the statue then I shall add that fact to it and a link to the relevant threads.

But I refuse to remove an event of history purely because some regard it as vandalism and choose not to list it as (according to the recent actions and posts by the members who accuse me of being part of Vox Populi) it stems from a group they disagree with. As they base their right upon having this historic event removed almost purely upon noting that this comes from a rival alliance and do not wish to note or recognize it, Then by the same right every alliance or individual the New Pacific Order has committed an act against when they chose to disagreed such an act, be allowed to remove such events from the wiki.

This clearly would not be acceptable and I state here and now that the reasons for their attempted removals are not acceptable. I ask for them to either withdraw this comment or to introduce more suitable reasons for such an edit to be allowed. --Jinman 14:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As the one controversially seeking to alter the status quo it is proper ettiquette for you to wait for the admin's decision before continuing (o, as the case may be, discontinuing). It is not proper ettiquette to sit on the wiki and edit in what you want to say a dozen times each day -- that serves no purpose but to annoy the usual caretakers of the page.  I hope that, if for no other reason that pretending to admin that you're reasonable (don't worry, just for a moment while he reaches a decision), you will cease what you are currently doing and adhere to ettiquette. Soviestan 20:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Continued problems with Jinman
Issues and request

On January 3rd, a user known as IP 91.111.71.56 made an alteration to Military Command of the New Pacific Order (url reference is here) wiki page in regards to the GATO-1V war outcome. This was done while he was no longer a member of GATO, was never a recognized authority of such, nor authorized by the New Pacific Order (creator of the article) to edit or change. The New Pacific Order's history team edited out the response per usual manner, to which such revisions by the NPO History team were undone. This continued for approximately one week until a duly authorized member of the NPO History team reported the IP for vandalism of our page. The immediate result was correct per your terms of service, blocking the IP and the page protected. Upon further investigation by the NPO History Team, it was discovered the IP user created an account known as Jinman (user link reference here). Jinman gained the support of the user Michael von Preußen (user link reference here), whom is also not a member of the New Pacific Order, unauthorized by the New Pacific Order and is not recognized as an authority thereto. Consequently due to this users support our page was unblocked and open to Jinmans continued violations. Immediately, user Jinman proceeded to alter the MilCom page again, but had also made adjustments to the following pages: & Francograd (linked to revision history)

Following, user Jinman entered into an argument with user Soviestan (user link reference here), commonly known as Vladimir. For reference, Vladimir is an authorized representative of the New Pacifica Order (currently an Imperial Officer and founding member, thus an authorized and approved as an information source for the New Pacific Order). During this argument, it was discovered user Jinman was commonly known in the game as "President ShinRa" (despite claims of no longer being such) as evidenced by this following wiki page; Outer Heaven Inc. This is one and the same as;  http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=79275. This nation and user are one and the same and are known detractors of the New Pacific Order further acknowledged by supporting documentation VI in which user Jinman in his own words acknowledge and supported any and all actions against the NPO, thereby providing contrary evidence to his claimed "unbiased and neutral" stance, he continues to refer to. It is important to note this nation and user are still military targets of the New Pacific Order for his continued actions against the New Pacific Order in Cybernations.

Eventually the Wiki Admin Lol Pie (user link reference here) ruled in favor of the New Pacific Order's MilCom page, but not additional actions were not taken to protect our other pages. Around this same time, a New Pacific Order member named Bilrow (user link reference here), was awarded a medal for working with the New Pacific Order History team in fighting vandalisim on the wiki. Jinman followed this up by verbally assaulting Bilrow as Jinman decided upon himself to state the award was an Anti-Jinman medal and removed the award, only to have our history team respond. The majority of Jinman's edits have been Anti-NPO in nature and capricious retaliation to our sanctions and actions against him in game. Each infraction is noted in supporting statements IV to VI. The personal attacks upon Bilrow, Vladimir and other NPO members only exacerbate the issues and violations.

Accordingly we request the following, as well as attest to the following statements:

I. Officially and directly, we the New Pacific Order request the user Jinman and his IP to be banned from continuing use of the CN Wiki as well as all wiki entities under the control of The Company as they pertain to the New Pacific Order.

II. Officially and directly, we the New Pacific Order request the user Jinman and his IP to be banned from continuing use of the CN Wiki as well as all wiki entities under the control of The Company.

III. In support of this, we feel the following infractions have occurred and will continue to occur as evident by his voracious and insistent violations of the following terms:

IIIa. User Conduct violations

User did Harass members of the Service by directly lying, misdirecting and neglecting important or informational data to support his actions and mask his violations.

User did intentionally Post, upload, transmit, share, or store content which is unlawful, defamatory, infringing, obscene, or invasive of another's right to privacy or publicity;

User did not Only use the services in a manner consistent with these Terms of Use and in compliance with applicable laws and regulations

IIIb. Submitting Content to the Site and Copyrights violation

You may not submit content to the Service that you did not create or that you not have permission to submit, which user violated in each of his noted 13 infractions as listed below in articles IVa. through IVm.

Reference: http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia:Terms_of_use

IV. Infraction Timeline:

IVa. Jan 3 IP vandals NPO MilCom page, Reverted back by authorized NPO History Team

IVb. Jan 4-8 IP vandal revises previous NPO authorized edits on the MilCom page IP vandal hits Francograd adding information in about the "destruction of the Lady Pacifica statue" - supporting evidence a Vox Youtube vid. Vox or Vox Populi are one and the same, known detractors of the NPO and currently remains under military pressure and sanctions for attacks and actions agains the New Pacific Order

IVc. Jan 9 IP vandal makes last IP edit of page Wiki admin lol pie blocks IP and protects page

IVd. Jan 10 The user account "Jinman" created, petitions Lol Pie about the protection

IVe. Jan 11 Lol Pie revokes protection for MilCom Jinman revises edits once again on MilCom page

IVf. Jan 12 Jinman starts arguing with Vladimir about the status of Francograd

IVg. Jan 13 Jinman reports an authorized NPO user for vandalism of the MilCom Page (aka changing the infractions created by Jinman)

IVh. Jan 14 Jinman encounters resistance from Vlad regarding the GATO-1V War page. Personal attacks against members of the New Pacific Order begin

IVi. Jan 15 Jinman alters the Grand Global Alliance page Bilrow revises those edits (as additional note Bilrow was a member of the Triumvrate of the GGA and thus an authorized historian/user/source) Bilrow reports Jinman for the vandalism of the GGA page twice

IVj. Jan 17 Jinman continues to alter the GGA page Jinman fully confesses to being President ShinRa despite claims that "I once was but am no longer"

IVk. Jan 18 Jinman removes a medal awarded Bilrow on his page for fighting vandalism Bilrow reverts those edits Jinman reported for vandalism of Bilrow's page Jinman continues to fight it out on the Francograd page DownNdirty (authorized NPO History team member) reverts edits made by Jinman

IVl. Jan 19 Jinman continues to revert edits on Francograd page

IVm. Jan 20 More edits to Francograd page

V. Relevant Additional Information

Va. Taken from Jinman's history page the following was stated by Jinman himself: Aftermath and Exile

Disgusted by the first actions of the New Pacific Order viceroys in banning several of the most loyal long term members (Princescamp, Thelma and Deadalus), ShinRa chose to break away from the Alliance and go into a self imposed exile, beginning his one nation war against the regime of the Pacificans. It was not long before the nation joined the new rebellion of Vox Populi.

For many months Outer Heaven Inc. fought under the alliance's banner against the Pacificans, repeatedly destroying their low strength nations and raiding those who had recived aid before passing it on to Vox nations in need of it.

The One Man's Vendetta War

Eventually choosing to leave Vox as it made them a target, Outer Heaven Inc. forged the alliance known as Blake's 7 and started all out attacks against the Pacifican nations. Within three months 	they have been confirmed to annex, anarchy and even utterly destroy twentyfive Pacifican nations. As far as ShinRa is concerned, they're just getting started.

These entries show Jinman, aka President ShinRa, aka IP 91.111.71.56, true nature and direction... everything 	anti NPO and complete support thereto. Considering this and his "evidence" of history is merely propaganda from the alliance he was a member of, evidence by the poster himself in the thread he offers as historical evidence. Jinman is bitter and this has blinded him to ignore the terms of use and thereby needs to be banned. We have to this point taken to countering, however, as he continues this path as a source of his vindication, I am requesting his banning based on your terms of use as listed above in article IIIa and IIIb.

VI. Relevant and Supporting internet website links

VIa. Vandal in question - NOTE - First edit undertaken by Jinman was on the "Outer Heaven Inc." wiki page (President ShinRa's nation)
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User:Jinman
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Jinman
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&showall=0&target=Jinman&month=&year=-1

VIb. Michael_von_Preußen - supported Jinman
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User:Michael_von_Preußen
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Michael_von_Preußen
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?limit=50&title=Special:Contributions&contribs=user&target=Michael+von+Preußen&namespace=&year=&month=-1

VIc. Bilrow - Authorized informational source and current member of New Pacific Order
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User:Bilrow
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Bilrow
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?limit=500&title=Special:Contributions&contribs=user&target=Bilrow&namespace=&year=&month=-1

VId. Vladimir - Authorized informational source and current Imperial Officer of the New Pacific Order
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=User:Soviestan
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Soviestan
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?limit=500&title=Special:Contributions&contribs=user&target=Soviestan&namespace=&year=&month=-1

VIe. Lol pie - Wiki Administrator
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User:Lol_pie
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Lol_pie
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?limit=500&title=Special:Contributions&contribs=user&target=Lol+pie&namespace=&year=&month=-1

VIf. NPO Military Command wiki
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Military_Command_of_the_New_Pacific_Order
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Military_Command_of_the_New_Pacific_Order
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Military_Command_of_the_New_Pacific_Order&action=history

VIg. Francograd wiki
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Francograd
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Francograd
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Francograd&action=history

VIh. Cybernations Post by NPO detractors and enemies re: Lady Pacific Statue (unauthorized source)
 * http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=33147&st=0

VIi. Additional infractions against the New Pacific Order and its associated Wiki's
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/91.111.91.161
 * http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/91.109.247.192

Brehon 09:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Brehon, NPO Special Community Service Leader on behalf Standard Moo-Cows adn the New Pacific Order History (Wiki) Team


 * At this moment in time I have more pressing matters to attend to, and I assure you that my defense and a response to this will be added some time in the future, but first of all I wish to point out a few small facts overlooked by this "Brehon" and his comrades.


 * -The first being the notice that I only stated that I had once been President ShinRa. Not that I was he, but that name had once applied to me. No longer is that the case. As you can see at the very beginning of that listed page there was a nation before Outer Heaven Inc. known as Midgar VIII or MidgarVIII, that was the nation under my control which was deleted before I allowed another to use the identity of President ShinRa.


 * -The second is the fact that half of these matters are focused upon the IP code of the computer I choose to use and the edits made via them.

The fact that a computer can be owned and used by more than one person within this game appears to have been overlooked, therefore this accusation is focused upon the every last edit made being an act of Jinman, not of any other player or former player of Cybernations.


 * It is also not uncommon for a person to be asked to add or correct something to Wikipedia or any other site they are on while they are logged in.


 * -Thirdly, here are links to the two edits I made to the page Outer Heaven Inc. [][] both are different than those this argument lists as those I made.


 * -Fourth, the reasoning behind my removal of the medal and attempts to communicate with Bilrow upon his previous edits and accusations are listed here[], as you can see I repeatedly attempted to make contact with the member over a prolonged period of time and when he continued to refuse to respond only then did I take action. If he took it personally, and the medal was awarded for vandalism done to his page by 75.172.52.50 then he has my apologies, but due to my reasoning listed in the user talk page, I remain skeptical of this entire event.


 * -Fifth and finally for the time being, I believe It was not during the debate with the player Soviestan that my alleged identity of President ShinRa came to light, as it had previously been noted on this very page. And from his previous posts it is almost certain that he has this page on this watchlist.
 * I have made no personal or verbal assaults upon the player Soviestan, and I feel I have remained quite calm and patient with him when he continued to make 'various comments' about me during this debate with such comments as:
 * ” Everyone else knows and accepts this but you. Get over it.”
 * ” I think you need to find something else to "stabilise," because you're not very good at doing it here.”
 * ” But what is the difference between the "vandalism" and what you are doing? Absolutely nothing except that you have appointed yourself King of the Wiki who gets to decide what goes and what doesn't.”
 * ” Careful, your emotional anti-Pacificanism is showing; wouldn't want it to mess up the image you're attempting to cultivate”


 * As stated before, I shall continue this at a later date, but I have far more pressing matters here and now. --Jinman 15:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

You continue to hide behind the past and use it as a shield to state it is not the current. From changing history so it fits the beliefs of yourself and your associates, while trying to cover such actions with admin is nothing more than the continuation of your actions. From the changing of members to various Nazi titles (as linked) to trying to create a history that suits your personal dogma to taking bits and pieces without acknowledging the whole of the situation, enough is enough. We have asked for you to stop, you do not. Put up your typical responses, but I implore Admin to take the time, read each link and each history. The truth of Jinman will become very clear very quickly. Do not allow him to continue to hide and act as an unbiased historian when the opposite is so clearly shown.

Brehon 18:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)Brehon

Once again I see an effort to alter my words and in the view of logic fail utterly. The reason I use examples for my past as my defense is it is my past actions which are being reviewed here. Every example or event you have given thus far is (bar the Francograd debate) an example of past events relating to either myself or President ShinRa.

I do not recall ever attempting to actually ever change any historic event within Cybernations completely and utterly and the closest thing which resembles this accusation is were my points upon the GATO-1V war which paralleled that of the Great Patriotic war along with points detailing the question as to how both can be regarded as being a victory when both sides can be viewed as having achieved the same goals. I have also never stated to have any associates as you have stated here, and the closest event which details and outlines this is the presence of President ShinRa who operates from the same computer as I do.

However, I must ask you to reword “while trying to cover such actions with admin is nothing more than the continuation of your actions.” into something more understandable as, as far as I can read it, it outlines what I believe to be is an accusation of excuses and as I have stated before in other areas of this site, I see nothing more than attempts to add to the truth of each page and give more sides and perspectives to an event than simply one community. If I am wrong then please correct me.

For this next part relating to the blatant vandalism of the NPO pages and replacing them with information such as “Nazi” I must ask for you look at the date of the edit and then at the period of time in which the GATO-1V war took place. As you can see the edits coincide with the period in which the war took place, and from the notations within the Outer Heaven Inc. page we can see that my nation MidgarVIII had long since been erased and that Outer Heaven Inc. (the “second” President ShinRa) was fighting in that war. I point out here with these comparisons that it was he and not I who made such edits to the pages influenced by the war and in an act of anger, and following several of the noted accusations towards “me” is ask if this is so hard to believe? (Details relating to my history with this person shall soon follow at the end of this post.)

You later point in “creating history” has already been answered and I note here that as my personal creed is to maintain and update the truth as additional information is uncovered how can an edit to suit my “personal dogma” be viewed as some form of crime?

I read your last statement of this section with some irony as it follows my own perspectives of many New Pacific Order controlled pages: “taking bits and pieces without acknowledging the whole of the situation, enough is enough”

I must point out here that it is you who has chosen largely to take “bits and pieces” of the information as to present a conflict to a certain perspective which only one side of the war agrees with. Can you deny that until direct intervention of the admin you were unwilling to admit that the InFANtile war was ongoing, and refused to accept such a fact as being listed? I chose to intervene as I believed that this had gone on for long enough and sought to counter-balance such judgments with an unbiased one of a person who was able to monitor and correct such pages with the truth. In short I decided that ‘enough was enough’ and took action.

Furthermore I must point out that you have not politely or directly asked me to stop without resorting to accusations of vandalism, arguments or insults. Were you able to do so I would be more than willing to listen but no such request has been offered as far as I can recall, and to my knowledge if one had then it is most likely in one of the debates I created to try and understand the points and views of those who were countering the edits.

I also request the Admin to read every link and post, but not just that of my own, also those who I am responding to and that I be given time to first counter every accusation and breach in the law that has been leveled at me thus far.

Finally I wish to state once and for all my relation and link with the player President ShinRa. Approximately thirty months ago, I joined Cybernations under the name President ShinRa and with the nation MidgarVIII. I continued this acting as an individual for some time (five months approximately) until my brother created his own account (I believe that name of said account was Leader, but I cannot be certain.) Neither of us was aware of the multiple account restriction so naturally when I was asked to send aid to him to help his nation grow we were both removed from the game. During this time I may have attempted to have been recruited by the NPO, but to my knowledge I was largely unaware of them.

By this point I was largely unconcerned with what was taking place and allowed my brother the use of the profile President ShinRa as we had both been fans of the game Final Fantasy VII, he created his new nation of Outer Heaven Inc. and life went on.

Until I began to edit the Military Command page, I simply monitored the OWF forums (which after my leaving the game became aware of) and read about the various events which took place. Every edit on this page from the acts of vandalism of the NPO page to the creation of the Outer Heaven Inc. page were his actions and not mine.

And now I ask for the user Brehon to not spark an argument in here, and instead should you wish to debate or discuss any points to use my user talk page. I would prefer not to clutter an admin talk page for other players. I bid you good night --Jinman 00:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I have stated the case as per my duty and responsibility of the NPO Culture division, for Admin to review in its entirety. We are all aware of your claims and comments. As for someone else using your computer and similar, that is your defense (and one typically used by detractors to cover their errors without accepting or taking responsibility for them). This was posted for and remains for Admin to review ALL the subject matter, not to pick and choose (as you have tried to funnel). If I am outside my rights to do so, that is up to admin and the legal team of The Company. I would request you allow Admin to review this and not attempt to speak accordingly as your position is VERY well documented. Brehon 00:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)Brehon

This argument is becomming long and I do not wish to clutter a public page as I stated before. I have posted my answer here[] and I ask for you to reply to my defence should you so wish. --Jinman 19:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As the one controversially seeking to alter the status quo it is proper ettiquette for you to wait for the admin's decision before continuing (o, as the case may be, discontinuing). It is not proper ettiquette to sit on the wiki and edit in what you want to say a dozen times each day -- that serves no purpose but to annoy the usual caretakers of the page.  I hope that, if for no other reason that pretending to admin that you're reasonable (don't worry, just for a moment while he reaches a decision), you will cease what you are currently doing and adhere to ettiquette. Soviestan 20:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Then if you are not President ShinRa, why on earth did you "invite us to guess who you were"? It only added to our suspicions of your identity. Further I believe that the debate should remain here where it is easier for Lol Pie to read through. Equally Vlad's talk page is growing massive yet no one has suggested moving it around to anywhere else. Additionally it would be nice of you to remove the claim of "Bilrow's self awards" from your user page when I have clearly proven that he has not done so. This section is meant for the admins, I am concerned about the precedence of allowing youtube videos and RP threads to become solid fact and evidence of events taking place as is being done over the Lady Pacifica in Francograd. I can see a massive potential for abuse here regarding such things. As an example, if during an alliance war I RP a thread stating that aliens just invaded the opposing side and slaughtered everyone thus we won, war is over,etc etc etc and placed it on the wiki then it doesn't mean it happened. Further these videos are produced by groups known to be hostile to each other (not just Vox, but my above example to and anything future) and willing to do what ever it takes to undermine the other, but it doesn't mean the propaganda should be accepted as actually taking place. Imperial Empire 05:44, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

“Then if you are not President ShinRa, why on earth did you "invite us to guess who you were"? It only added to our suspicions of your identity.”

I did not state my identity because A) I do not have one in the game and thus I have nothing you would regard as being an identity. and B) I was certain that the reaction would be that I have broken the rules by refusing to use the account any more and allowing someone else to do so by using it to create their own new nation. As far as Cybernations can be concerned, Jinman is the only identity I still have as the previous one does not apply to me.

“Further I believe that the debate should remain here where it is easier for Lol Pie to read through.”

Very well, but I feel with the vast number of links posted by Brehon it will not be long before this page exceeds it’s data limit (as a warning stated when I attempted to post my answer and queries to the accusations in this thread.)

“Equally Vlad's talk page is growing massive yet no one has suggested moving it around to anywhere else.”

To put it simply, the argument would long be over on that page if Soviestand and Zeta Defender were capable of understanding and properly reading my replies to their accusations and arguments. It is also a page which will not be required to be used as often as this one is (one belongs simply to a member, the other to an Admin.)

“Additionally it would be nice of you to remove the claim of "Bilrow's self awards" from your user page when I have clearly proven that he has not done so.”

I still remain skeptical of that argument, which is why I still have not removed my views upon that fact and I assure you that in the near future I shall be posting a reply to you as why.

“This section is meant for the admins, I am concerned about the precedence of allowing youtube videos and RP threads to become solid fact and evidence of events taking place as is being done over the Lady Pacifica in Francograd.”

And yet Francograd is an RP based city, and as I have stated many, many times before there was nothing stopping a response or even a post by the Pacifican government stating it to be ‘non-canon’ and not part of Francograd’s history. Should there be one, I shall add this information to the page along with a link to that thread as well.

“I can see a massive potential for abuse here regarding such things. As an example, if during an alliance war I RP a thread stating that aliens just invaded the opposing side and slaughtered everyone thus we won, war is over, etc etc etc and placed it on the wiki then it doesn't mean it happened.”

Let me understand this, you are comparing a bombing of a governmental symbol by a resistance group against the power they oppose, to a sudden and random alien attack stating rather than the simple destruction of a major symbol that the entire opposing alliance has now lost the war. And do you really thing that this would not be disregarded immediately by a great many people? or taken seriously by any individuals on your forums?

Furthermore, I see nothing to stop the other alliance editing the wiki page stating that this fact is widely disregarded by many members of their side and also others on the forums and posting links to such comments.

“Further these videos are produced by groups known to be hostile to each other (not just Vox, but my above example to and anything future) and willing to do what ever it takes to undermine the other, but it doesn't mean the propaganda should be accepted as actually taking place.”

The link was to a thread, and it was only the thread which contained the Youtube video. The Lady Pacifica statue itself was a symbol and a form of propaganda so I fail to see exactly why it should be allowed to exist if another propaganda related incident within it’s history is not. --Jinman 10:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Yet More Problems with Jinman
He is continuing to vandalise pages on the matter of the GATO war (eg. GATO-1V War) which you have already ruled on, seemingly on the basis that you didn't rule on the issue itself but his placing of the issue on the Military Command page in particular. I know this is ridiculous, but he refuses to cease his constant editing until you say the word. Perhaps you could make it explicit to him this time that it applies to all pages, not just the Military Command and GATO-1V pages. Thanks. Soviestan 21:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the NPO should try to make their own pages less biased. I'm not saying that what Jinman is doing isn't possible vandalism, but I am saying that I have read many of those articles, and they are way less than neutral. Michael von Preußen


 * Soviestan, you apparently missed this message above that section of the page, and the additional edits I put in to point out that the following was in dispute and continued the beliefs of other members:
 * Please note that the following points are by no means solid fact but are beliefs by members of several alliances involved in this war --Jinman 06:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

And you apparently missed that it is irrelevant. As Rishnokof pointed out in his last edit of the GATO-1V war page: "The CN wiki is compromised solely of solid information and facts. The CN forums are for speculation, discussion, and personal opinions, this is a personal opinion and speculation." If you disagree then I foresee an edit in your page's future: "While it is by no means solid fact, many members hold the belief that Jinman is a [...]" You get the idea. You're out of loop-holes. Soviestan 14:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * (A note to any users reading this, if you find anything here insulting or that can be regarded as being a personal attack against Soviestan, I ask that you first look back and reflect upon his comments and remarks upon me before passing judgment. Thank you.)


 * I find great irony in the fact that one as bias as yourself is now choosing to use the support of facts in your defense, when it was previous you and your allies defending a series of opinions you agreed with through multiple pages. At least I was willing to state that such information was a belief.


 * Also, and this is just out of personal interest, would you please care to state if any of those members willing to agree with such a statement, are outside of the editing group you are part of? Or their in game allies? truthfully that is.


 * And finally, for the loophole comment... well, I’m sure that one who has the intelligence of Vladimir can easily figure out the point I would make. --Jinman 15:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The point had nothing to do with you or what people think of you. The point was that the precedent you are attempting to set (like all precedents you have carelessly attempted to set in your "shots at the NPO") opens the door for anything to be said in any wiki page on the pretext of "some people think" -- no matter how wrong or ludicrous those thoughts are.

Also, I cannot believe that you're still going on about the survival objective. Soviestan 15:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

How? Up until that incident all I have done is state the truth and also facts. Unless you wish to begin arguing that the InFANtile war is a victory for One Vision, to which I would have thought that the points contradicting such a view would have been obvious. Additionally, I would give examples of how I was not taking ‘shots at the NPO’ and how they consisted of various facts, but you have apparently proven in the past that you are more than unwilling to accept the points, views and facts of others.

Anyway, as you are unwilling to answer my questions I suggest that we stop this conversation here and now. --Jinman 15:31, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

New Template
I'd like to make a request that the News css template be semi-protected. Unregistered users, possibly bots, keep replacing the content with links to YouTube pages. Given it's visibility on the main page, I think it a valid proposal to semi-protect. Michael von Preußen 05:25, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Category Inquery
Greetings Lol pie,

I'm inquiring about category:People of The New Pacific Order and category:Members of New Pacific Order. What is the possibility of merging these two categories together? For the simple reason of monitoring, and ease of updating.

Does it require that I physically edit each individual page to reflect the category the New Pacific Order has chosen to categorize it's current and prior member base? Or, I don't suppose you can wave a magic wand of sorts? :)

In a related yet off topic question, it appears categories pull from Nation Info Box coding, where would I find a link explaining how this is done?

regards, sumguy of downNdirty, New Pacific Order, Division II Leader, Wiki Division.

--DownNdirty 03:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Categories Part II
Lol pie,

Thank you for the quick response. We at the New Pacific Order are attempting to make a index of all past and present members of The Order - in order to maintain and update these articles over the course of time. Is there a forum or procedure we need to go through prior to replacing category: People of The New Pacific Order with category: Member of New Pacific Order (as it would seem the member page would be the less painful road)? In turn, what are your thoughts on this direction should we decide to pursue it? Or, possible alternatives?

thank you for your time,

--DownNdirty 18:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Template:NPOMilCom
Thank you, it's much appreciated :)

--DownNdirty 04:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

TPF Page
Any idea why a search for "history of tpf" doesnt bring any matches up? According to "History of The Phoenix Federation" it should be a redirect? Auto98 14:45, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

RE: Edit
Thanks for this one. I coulda sworn the three was in there when I copied the thing :-p

KingJarkko 00:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Category problems
Hello Lolpie.

I'm attempting to replicate what the Category:Tech Corp of the New Pacific Order does (you can see that it displays a list of all people/templates/etc that have either one of the two Tech Corp templates) with the MilCom template.

However I've not had much luck as you can see from here. The template itself shows up in the category list, and links to the category show up in other people's wiki pages, but the people and pages themselves don't show up in the category (like they do for the Tech Corp).

Would you be able to correct this some how and let me know what I've done wrong as I'm thinking of doing the same thing to the other templates.

Cheers.

Imperial Empire 06:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thought I would let you know that it's now working. I'm not sure if it's because you did something (I see no edits from you on any of our templates) or if it just takes time to collate the data into the one category.


 * Either way everything seems to be functioning normally now.


 * Imperial Empire 10:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I am new?
Hey I have no idea where to talk, I am assuming I am talking at the right place.

Lol pie,

Thanks for making all those 'upgrades' to my nation page and articles. And I just wanted to know, why did you say thanks about the edit to the DHS image?

Regards Super Warmonkey

Okay its cool.

Pages marked for deletion
All marked for deletion:

Bilrow
I wish to make a complaint about the user Bilrow

To be blunt he is someone uncompromising in his beliefs and opinions, he is unwilling to communicate in any form with others and will always immediately flag any alterations or edits as vandalism without stating why, nor his reasons for doing so. He's apparently bloody minded and evidence of this can be found here with his repeated vandalism reports liking to those who disagree with the "facts" he and other members of his alliance (I am assuming he is a member of One Vision due to the areas in which he focuses upon) make: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Cyber_Nations_Wiki:Report_vandalism

I am sorry to trouble you with this but I wish for Bilrow to be warned if not punished for such actions, and I ask for action to be taken if he continues to abuse the vandalism system.


 * I wish to attest to this. The majority of Bilrow's posts on the Cyber Nations Wiki:Report vandalism page are not vandalism at all, but are legitimate edits that don't fit with his perception of history. Michael von Preußen

No offense, but after reviewing the Report Vandalism article, Bilrow has only posted ONE vandalism report outside of vandalism directed at his own personal page. I find your accusations unfounded. Further more, who's 'perception' of history should we be telling? I believe the members of the New Pacific Order are more then capable of writing and maintaining their own Wiki article.--downNdirty 05:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You are missing a number of accusations upon his part:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Cyber_Nations_Wiki:Report_vandalism&direction=next&oldid=176985


 * I am thus far unable to find other accusations, but to my memory there were far more than simply those other two. Some were needed such as the actual vandalism to Bilrow's user page, but others such as my own edits (displayed in the link above) pointed out that the InFANtile war was ongoing. Bilrow then undid this, reported such things as vandalism and then refused to answer my every attempt to contact or speak with him. :These are not the actions of an open minded person, nor one who seeks to preserve fact over opinion and all that I ask is that his vandalism reports be taken with a pinch of salt in the future, and that should he continue to abuse the page action should be taken against him.


 * In response to DownNdirty’s next points, I believe that NPO related pages should have an unbiased opinion of history or at least one which is not purely written by members of your own alliance, especially when they directly relate to actions coinciding or against other Cybernations powers (the war page for example.)


 * When you can prove that you are capable of writing and maintaining pages which are less opinionated, tell both sides of each story of the Order’s history, MDP relations and other events and are capable of listening to the points of others than simply refusing the person the right to add to your page, I shall then consider that you are more than capable of maintaining your own page.
 * Finally, I will note that a small number of your pages have become somewhat less unbiased in the past few months but they still contain a great deal of opinion within them. --Jinman 07:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Template Loop Problem
http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Infobox_Weapon is causing issues, giving a "Template Loop Detected" error on it's page, and any page that uses this infobox. Propose it either be deleted, or repaired. Arrnea 11:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I second this, it should be deleted. Michael von Preußen

Duplicate Image
Can you please delete Image:Association of Germanic States.png? It's a duplicate of another one I uploaded. Thanks, Michael von Preußen

Featured article status
I am interested in getting the article Eagleia to featured status. I would be pleased if you could review it. Going through some of the currently featured articles shows that the article Eagleia is actually larger and has more information than some of them, so I thought that now's the right time to submit it. I would also be pleased if you review all articles in Category:Eagleia in general. I look forward to your response. :) --Knowzilla 17:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was wondering about how such a status got assigned in the first place. Do admin's grant it?  I'm going to be expanding my nation's article soon and was wondering on that status.  Michael von Preußen

So, will you be reviewing them soon? It's been some time. --Knowzilla 15:43, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Großgermania
I have nominated Großgermania for Featured Article Status here. Please take a look at it. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

Template:Green
I was wondering why you changed the way the Template looks... in my honest opinion, it looked much better earlier. It's not like it's a big enough template to need to be hidden, either. Michael von Preußen


 * Would it not be posible to keep theold design with the hide function, then? Michael von Preußen

Page deletion request
Can you please delete a sandbox page I made?

User:Michael von Preußen/sandbox/First General Elections in Großgermania

Thanks, Michael von Preußen

Wikia Auto-messages
Hey, is there any way you could get the auto-messages by Wikia to be hidden in the "Latest Activity" section along the side? They're being listed there and it kinda limits the point of that box when they're just randomly showing up there, knocking actual edits off. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

I agree. It does rather defeat the purpose. Arrnea 07:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

UNTA
I would like to request something be done to translate this page, or it should be deleted. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

Prussia and the the Holy Roman Empire
I was wondering if there would be a way to merge these articles into the Austro-Hungarian Empire, as I wish to begin work soon on a page named Prussia, and these articles are simply excess articles relating to one alliance with three names in rapid succession. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

Treaty map
Bloc to bloc links work. Updated map. Bloody Nicholas 03:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

CN Wiki irc channel?
Do we have a cn wiki channel for fast tracking discussions about articles and templates? -- Forgot to sign ~ Tilton53 20:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Prolem Reported
Hey there Lol pie -

Someone reported a problem with my former nation's article at Special:ProblemReports, saying it "is a totally fictional article based on a historical incident in 2013."

Hoping that my article will not be deleted, I wish for you to ensure that this is resolved and that my article continues to exist as a historical record of my time in CyberNations.

Sincerely, ~ General Mazur, at 02:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * On a side note, please delete Workers of the World. My own page; author request. ~ General Mazur, at 02:16, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Your thoughts
We would like your thoughts on this particular page if you wouldn't mind.

The question at hand is whether this page is violating anything (including Style Guidelines) or not.

In our opinion it does not, the style guidelines simply say that there is to be no advertising, so I do not see how these images in any way constitute advertising the NPO (we have other ways to do this), and additionally it cannot be a propoganda gallery since there is no propoganda on it, it is a collection of images from our forum regarding the job tags we receive in one easy-to-find place for those who may not be an expert with the wiki. Further, this page to relies on having that one there.

Thank you. -- Imperial Empire 10:42, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've already made my point on this, and I think you will agree. The article in question is not an article, it is a collection of images regarding a specific topic.  It exists for no purpose except to facilitate NPO members being able to add NPO-related images, such as these, which are forms of propaganda or at the very least promotion, to their own pages.  What this has resulted in is pages with the NPO flag as a header and such captions as "Join the NPO!" or "Our technology corp is recruiting!" or the like, which is an advertisement.  So, therefore, if this page itself is not an advertisement, it exists to facilitate advertisement on other pages.


 * I've also already said that if the page was made into an article - that is, something at least with words and relevant information, and if the images were properly formatted using a gallery, I would not have a problem with the page. In fact, I've offered to format the page for them - all the editors (the primary if not only editor is downNdirty) need to do is provide content.  An intorduction, perhaps the use of the page to explain their governmental structure - there are many possible uses for this page.


 * All of my suggestions in this regard have been ignored or called 'uneccesary' or 'trivial'. This is because the creators of the page want it to remain as it is - a gallery of their own promotional tools.  This is why I believe that if the NPO does not want to reformat the article, the article should be deleted. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

Well, I feel I need to throw in my two cents now. As the original co-author of the page in question, I'm actually quite dumbfounded at the accusations being tossed around. First, the intent was never propaganda or advertisement, simply a chronological listing of service tags and hierarchy of the individual departments. I can't believe I even have to defend this page. Second, the claims that Michael's suggestions went unheard are also unwarranted - I'll admit my immediate reaction was a bit hasty, however some text has been added to the page to quell his and only his concerns. This page has existed for some time now, as well is linked through out various templates. Only now, for whatever reason it becomes controversial. I'd also like to point out, that the original name of the page was NPODOGTAGS (I'm not overly creative), which was kindly renamed and redirected. I would assume had there been an issue with the page, it would have been raised at that time. The style requirements in question simply state "Do not write the article as an advertisement." - if a direct source of the article in question can be shown to me as advertisement, I'll revise it immediately. Otherwise, I enjoy the article as is, and see no need to revise any further.--downNdirty 03:05, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I will conceed that "Our tech Corps is recruiting" is advertising and should probably not have been on there to start off with. However an NPO banner as a header is the choice that some of the people make for how they want their wiki pages to be displayed. I do no see why we should start restricting how they want their pages to appear because some people don't like it. Infoboxes aren't for everyone and some dislike them.


 * Further, if these images are simply a way to "promote" our pages, then what does that make the entire wiki? Every nation page is promoting their nation - yours, mine, everyones. Even the alliance pages are created to promote the alliance as best as they can. This is undisputed. But if these images consitute as "promotion", then what's the difference between having the image displayed or having text that reads "recruiter" or "Media Scribe"? The wiki is a very visual tool and this cannot be denied, some people don't like reading slathers of text when images can do it well enough for them and our members enjoy how it appears now. Additionally what of the maps on your nation's wiki page and all the coat of arms and such? While they are certainly nice they to serve to promote your nation, just as my national flag serves to promote my nation and the duty tags show people what I do/have done. What of all the RP pages I have seen? These promote nation pages and advertise them to.


 * Also why did you not try and talk about this with us? It would not have hurt to have left a message on someones talk page and then the discussion could have taken place then, instead you showed up out of the blue, stuck a "This page should be deleted" template on it and declared to us all that it was a propoganda gallery - how on earth did you think we were going to react to this? You've proposed that it needs to be reformated into a gallery when that is exactly what it currently is - perhaps you should give an example of how you intend to do this?. Additionally a lot of information can be found elsewhere on our wiki. We have pages for many of our departments, and the information that some people want can be found there. -- Imperial Empire 03:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * First, I like that some text has been added. And I concede that there is a point to the page, now, and that it's not simply an advertisement.  But I maintain that an article is an article - if I write an article regarding something RP-ish, I put real content, I don't just add some images or an infobox and leave it at that.  That's not an article, and I think only articles should have a point on this wiki.  I also think that adding any header - NPO banner or otherwise - should be avoided on nation pages, as it is inherently an advertisement.


 * With regard to your ideas about all articles being promotions, I disagree. My nation's article and other related articles are not promoting my nation, they are simply documenting its history. urthermore, many alliance articles are written in a properly neutral ashion, which I cannot say is the case for NPO's article, which is heavily biased towards them.


 * I also think that if any user wants to add NPO dogtags to their wiki page, they can do that without the assistance of the page in question. If all the images in that article were added to a special category reserved for NPO dogtags, users could just find them there.  The wiki has a section for informing users how to make their wikis, it's at Help:Contents.  New articles need not be added for the sake of instructionality.


 * As for why I did not leave messages on your talk page, I was hoping to get input from the community at large. Adding the afd tag to an article is the method by which such discussions are started.  If I were just to leave a message on a talk page, other possibly interested parties may not have seen it. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

Copyrighted images
Hey there -

After much work, I've been able to reduce the number of files that were uploaded since the new license coding was added which do not have a license to 162, with another 102 images that are copyrighted (most of them have information on the copyright holder, and some of them are fair-use).

Going to work at some point or another on classifying images added before the license coding came into place, but as that's quite a substantive job, it'll take a while.

~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)

RIA
Is there a reason you moved the RIA Template to the top of Government of the Random Insanity Alliance? Generally such templates are used at the bottom of pages. ~ Michael von Preußen (voicemail) &bull; (nation)