Talk:Bipolar War

Please do not change the generic war name unless there is a wide consensus to do so from people on both sides of the war.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 2:45, Duodi, 2 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Perhaps a preventive move-protect would be prudent? It's going to happen, one way or another. If a widely accepted name comes forth, it can be brought up here.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     16:52, January 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds acceptable to me.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 7:65, Duodi, 2 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * As long as its not called Great War VII(if it escalates), I'm okay with whatever name it is called.

Will we be accepting the FOK declaration as a true one even though it was made via Wiki and not CN forums? --Brenann (talk &bull; contribs) 19:20, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * If it's in-game, it's a war, regardless of how or if a declaration is made. FOK is in a state of war with the NpO, and they have chosen to declare as such, though through a somewhat unconventional medium.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     19:56, January 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * @ Brenann. atm, it's impossible to make a declaration on the CN forums when it's down, so declaring via Wiki, is the next best thing - whatever works really. :)
 * While declaring via the CN Wiki comes awfully close to using the Wiki as a forum - something generally frowned upon - if wars are declared in-game then it must be considered official.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 9:33, Quintidi, 5 Pluviôse CCXVIII

\m/ Commanders
Can someone please make a decision on who's the commander of \m/ for the article? I've seen that swapped way too many times, we need to pick one set and stick with it. Locke  Talk  •  Alestor     01:18, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Either all three alliance leaders or Xander. I personally think Xander is the correct option, but I'm not going to argue against the triumvirs instead.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:92, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Should the participation in this war grow (the possibility is largely heightened with the inclusion of FOK), I can see the Commanders section becoming awfully cluttered should the Triumvirs remain. --Gopherbashi (talk &bull; contribs) 05:00, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

So, any one who declares on one side or another can become a commander?
 * Each alliance can have up to one designated military leader. However, not all alliance need one. For example, the TPF War has the CC with only 3 commanders: the leader of the alliance attacked, the leader of coalition, and the name of a rogue from IRON. Not every alliance needs a commander.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     17:35, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Given the rapid expansion of this war and the number of disparate alliances involved, I'm removing both commander lists for the time being.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 3:82, Nonidi, 9 Pluviôse CCXVIII

NpO and Co Commanders
Should we really include Rebel Virginia? It seams his alliance isn't important enough to include him as a commander, and he will likely be removed within the day reagardless. --Supercoolyellow (talk &bull; contribs) 19:12, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:02, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Provided that there aren't a large number of them, prominent rogues tend to get listed. It's fine for now.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     19:17, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * He still gets the alliance listing, there's no point to listing the commander of a two-man AA.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:04, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII

Update
Can we PLEASE get a stats update before this evening?
 * Can you PLEASE sign your talk page posts? Also, if you want, run one yourself.  Otherwise, someone'll get to it when they get to it.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:21, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * I would run a stats update (I actually did at one point yesterday, but didn't get around to tallying Polaris' numbers at the time and it was deleted). And I'd be more than willing to figure out things if I knew how to properly format the update and tally things up without having to manually do it alliance to alliance. I'm sorta new at this. JT Jag (talk &bull; contribs) 20:17, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's about the only way to do it, unfortunately. That's why stats never get done once a lot of alliances enter the war.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:48, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Someone needs to whip together a program (a Firefox app, maybe?) that would allow you to search for multiple alliances and automatically add together their total NS, nukes, nations, improvements ect. Probably wouldn't be too complicated, but it's far beyond my abilities. JT Jag (talk &bull; contribs) 20:30, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if you don't mind stats that are a little early, UE keeps a list of all that stuff that can be viewed any time. He tends to run a few hours before update. It's what I used for pre-war stats. The addition still has to be done, but at the size of the war it's not so bad yet, and the stats will always be there so you can do it any time, not just at update.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     20:33, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here are the numbers as of 2:40 server time. I can't make head or tails of how to add them. NpO side 622 nations, 18,407,769
 * Nation strength, and 5,651 nukes. \m/ side : 609 nations, 21629532 Nation strength, and 6509 nukes.--Supercoolyellow (talk &bull; contribs) 20:42, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll get these in!  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:72, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * I've been posting warstats every night in the Sanction Race thread. They're taken from the All Alliances Display, so they're not real-time, but they're no more than 12 hours out of date so it captures everything from the previous Update.  If you want, I should be able to rig it up so it collects NS and nuke stats as well. --   Gopherbashi  Sanction Race Updater   03:03, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I rebuilt my stats program so that it now displays nation count, NS, and nuke count, to be used for the wiki stats. I normally post updates 3-4 hours before update, and I'll just c/p them in here at the same time.  I'll leave out tonight's because we already had some after the last round of DoWs (not counting Umbrella, who went in after the update). --   Gopherbashi  Sanction Race Updater   05:20, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

New method of entering stats
New method of entering stats:

Here's how to use it:

Example of usage:

Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:88, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Note that you do not need to use or  tags, these are in the template.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:92, Sextidi, 6 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Errors fount and corrected.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 3:01, Septidi, 7 Pluviôse CCXVIII

Flag Ordering
This is ridiculous. We should have NpO and \m/ at the top of the belligerent lists. They were the original combatants anyway. -Lordliam
 * Tradition is bloc first, then individual combatants. Neither of those alliances are in blocs (Polar is in Blunity, but I'm fairly certain that's econ only, and certainly there has been no attempt to paint it as a Blunity action).  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     16:47, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Polar and \m/ should be first. They started this war and should be at the top.
 * Look at any war with bloc participation. That's how it works.
 * Great War IV, The Unjust War
 * War of the Coalition
 * Karma War
 * TPF War
 * It always goes blocs, then independants.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     21:50, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

I smell a complete overhaul coming soon. Come on, put a "original combatants" box at the top with all the other alliances at the bottom. -Lordliam
 * Convention will not be broken unless there's a good reason. Look at the abovementioned articles.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 3:01, Octidi, 8 Pluviôse CCXVIII

R&R Involvement
In their DoW R&R stated they were coming in under the LEO treaty, not SF, since FOK! is also in the war shouldn't both be listed under that? --Vladisvok Destino (talk &bull; contribs) 18:34, January 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, you're right. I'll take care of that now.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 7:77, Septidi, 7 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * We might want to switch it back to Superfriends now that Fark and (apparently) CSN are in. JT Jag (talk &bull; contribs) 05:49, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * This can be done once things calm down a bit.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 2:61, Octidi, 8 Pluviôse CCXVIII

War Name
In the recent poll, it is clear that the name chosen is the Second Unjust War. Should we move the name? --Ryan Greenberg (talk &bull; contribs) 03:38, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * While it probably will end up that way, I say we wait. The poll is still open, and with thousands of people playing, 20 or so could come along and vote for one of the runners up and change the result.  The poll's also only been open for less than a day, I say we at least wait for a few days before changing.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:54, Octidi, 8 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * It's not even close to being done. I even specifically said in the OP that there'd be at least one more round. Wait on it.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     03:50, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

The War of the Busted Forums, perhaps? :P --  Gopherbashi  Sanction Race Updater   05:20, January 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Dang it Gopher I already voted for the other name you suggest the \m/oralist war, and now you go off and support a new name? For shame :P--Supercoolyellow (talk &bull; contribs) 06:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

XTLS
I saw a quick DoW pass on the warscreen tonight, but I believe they're a one-man alliance. --  Gopherbashi  Sanction Race Updater   06:16, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, alright, then. I'll add them back in without a link and a generic flag.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 2:62, Octidi, 8 Pluviôse CCXVIII

War Classification
At what point would this war be considered Global? Angry Nun of NSO 20:28, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * We'll wait and see how big it gets. I don't ant to rush into a global classification only for it to end like the TPF War did.    Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:55, Octidi, 8 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Once the big blocs, like C&G, SF, or Cit, fully activate, and we get a nice long list on both sides, we should be set to call this global.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     20:36, January 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The other option is to wait until your poll is done and we have a definitive new name.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:64, Nonidi, 9 Pluviôse CCXVIII

I think we can go Global on this now, with TOP in and SF all in. Safe to say its global. Brennan  Talk  •  Brennan     04:49, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

NpO + \m/ at the top?
I'd like to suggest that the primary instigators of the war be placed at the top of the stats list, even if they aren't in a bloc. This has generally been the case in past wars with say NPO and OV being at the top in Karma, or GOONS and NpO at the top of the UJW page. It seems strange to me that all the primary players that started this war are halfway down the list. Lord Brendan (talk &bull; contribs) 21:50, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * As noted above, both NPO and OV were in blocs in the Karma War, and as they were the first alliances to declare war, their blocs were the first to be listed. Blocs are always listed before individual alliances.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 9:12, Nonidi, 9 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Well, were Frostbite still active or \m/ more connected, this would have happened. Usually wars are begun with someone in a bloc, it just so happens this time it didn't.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     21:58, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Withdrawals and Surrenders
First, "Withdrawals" needs to be fixed. Second, the one nation from ((O)) only received a forum ban; his nation is still around and therefore can partake in in-game actions, such as declarations of war, attacks, and surrenders if he so chooses. To say that he has withdrawn from the war would be a misnomer, as only his access to the forums has been restricted. --  Gopherbashi  Sanction Race Updater   00:09, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I searched in-game for alliance affiliation ((O)), and found no result, otherwise I'd not have listed it there. Would you mind linking me to his nation if you've found it?   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:08, Décadi, 10 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Yeah, it took me a little while to find it too. ((O)) is apparently a shortform for his alliance's real name, Sön.  ("Short form" being somewhat misleading).  It's mentioned in the second line of his DoW. Declaration of War In-game Stats --   Gopherbashi  Sanction Race Updater   00:23, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll fix this up.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:18, Décadi, 10 Pluviôse CCXVIII

NOIR
Was there an official declaration bringing NOIR in the war? NOIR is an economic bloc, the only military agreement in the bloc is that nations cannot attack other NOIR nations, but NOIR does not really go to war as a bloc; in fact there is a possibility of having NOIR nations on both sides of this conflict. I haven't changed it, because I don't want to overstep my bounds, but I felt I should mention it. Sigurd Odinnson (talk &bull; contribs) 05:40, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

NOIR has an ODP clause. Krunk 06:18, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone on the OWF said they wanted NOIR in, so I added it. And though it was not activated as such, NOIR does feature an ODP clause, as Krunk has mentioned.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     12:57, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Two theater war
This war should be broken in to two theaters (like RL Pacific/European in WW2) since the initial \m/ Polaris conflict has ended and the CnG conflict has just begun that is apart of this war over all.


 * No, it's still consistent enough to keep it together. So far.  Mind, I'm horrible on the FA scene, so I'm not going to be updating this article. *summons Lol pie and Gopherbashi*.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 2:65, Décadi, 10 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * I would say that this war is two wars, seeing as the CB for the TOP/IRON vs CnG war is mostly separate, as stated in their DoW (http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79441). As the war goes on, I would suggest creating two separate topics as the sides unfold. SirDelirium (talk &bull; contribs) 07:34, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps these could be considered sub conflicts of a what we could call the January World War or a more appropriate name? --71.233.43.183 07:49, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Call the whole thing "The Winter War", and split it into the NpO/\m/ front and the CnG/Paradoxia front. JT Jag (talk &bull; contribs) 08:12, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * CnG war should be seperate IMHO, as CnG was not involved in the NpO-\m/ WarDdog241 (talk &bull; contribs) 08:14, January 29, 2010 (UTC)ddog
 * NSO is trying to get white peace in their conflict with FOK et al, and if they do than the NpO-\m/ war is entirely unrelated to the Paradoxia-CnG war and we can wrap this particular page up JT Jag (talk &bull; contribs) 08:27, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I think we need to create a separate page for the TOP-C&G War, as NpO, FOK, and \m/ have made peace and this war looks to be extensive in and of itself. The casus belli would be the NpO-\m/ War. Taishaku
 * I think a new page should be created before we remove any more from this article. That doesn't appear to be happening. WCR (talk &bull; contribs)

i think it should be kept within the same war as there is a decent chance that some of the alliances on polar's side in this were former CC members who might continue the fight under the banner of TOP.
 * I'd disagree. The two wars have different motives, different commanders, different CBs and different targets. This one is against \m/, the other should be the one against CnG. If having some alliances in common would mean it's the same war, then we might as well fuse half of CN history into a one huge war with longer breaks than usual.
 * This war was the direct cause of TOP's war, but TOP declared because they want blood from C&G. There are two entirely different sets of fighters on each side, and the CB's are different. It's enough that I'd say they should be different articles.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     13:01, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * By the same logic, the War of the Coalition is two separate wars, as the large coalition who declared war on the New Polar Order then claimed to be uninvolved in the "NoCB" conflict. Since there is some connection between the fronts, I think we should follow past precedent here and consider them both the same war. Theamazingdeist (talk &bull; contribs) 18:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC) Sakura (talk &bull; contribs) 13:59, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't around at the time and I believe you were, so you'd know this better than I: did the WotC involve mass-pull outs from original "NoCB" War? With the way it is now, all the original combatants are trying to get peace, leaving the new declaring alliances to their own war.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     14:04, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd see these two conflicts as being definitely connected into one larger, global conflict. The idea of having them as separate theaters seems like a nice way to put it, but it would be ridiculous to show them as completely separate wars, especially when TOP entered the war saying it was entering into "this conflict" and referring to it as "this particular theater" in "this larger war" http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79441. Theamazingdeist (talk &bull; contribs) 18:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

If we create sub-conflict pages, we should at the very least keep all the main information on this article, and only put relevant information on the others. Whether or not the CBs are different, all the wars started because of the treaty ties which drew everyone to fighting on either NpO or \m/'s side. It is one war (for example, World War II) even if it had separate conflicts within it (the European and Pacific theatres). Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:35, Décadi, 10 Pluviôse CCXVIII

CB change
I tweaked the CB in the NpO-\m/ war to Alleged violation of community and charter standards on tech raiding to reflect upon the content of Grub's DoW. - kulomascovia
 * Grub later stated that that was not the sole reason: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s=&showtopic=78932&view=findpost&p=2121452  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:76, Décadi, 10 Pluviôse CCXVIII

BTA on both sides?
I notice that both sides have BTA under them. Kingcjc 21:48, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

The name of the war
Should we REALLY call this the Second Unjust War? I mean, it doesn't even come close to being relevant enough to deserve that name, especially considering the way it turned out. JT Jag (talk &bull; contribs) 05:23, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, but it seems Bob has spoken. -- Avatar Talk 05:27, January 30, 2010 (UTC)