Cyber Nations Wiki talk:Village Pump

Cyber Nations Wiki Manual of Style Proposal
Anyone interested in helping to improve the wiki should please view my proposal for expanding our Manual of Style. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation

Page of templates
Given that number of templates we have floating about here (nation, position, etc), would it be worth creating a page of templates similar to how Wookieepedia has done it? I know occasionally I require templates and I cannot find them, or I don't know that they exist but could have been handy. Lumping them altogether through a central page would be a good idea in my opinion -- Imperial Emperor - Talk · My home
 * Generally, most of them end up being put into Category:Templates, however, they are in no way sorted as nicely as Wookieepedia has done, and at the same time, not all templates end up being categorized (I can personally say that I've started doing so less since the 'click-to-categorize' function came in.
 * All of the templates I've made and significantly updated and up on my user page, but you're definately right, there are lots more.
 * Personally, I don't think it's a big enough issue to create a new project page for; however, if you feel it needs to be done, you can certainly start on at Project:Templates, and could start by inserting those in the Templates category and on my userpage, as that does cover the majority of them.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation
 * I didn't even know that category existed. Well, just looking at it I'd say that would be more then enough, and rather than create more work for ourselves by creating something entirely new, that could probably be more widely advertised and would do just as well. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk · My home

Collapsible NavFrames fixed
I am pleased to announce that, thanks to the geniuses at the, the collapsible 'NaveFrame's are now fixed. However, this presents the problem that, due to the fact we never considered them to be broken before, they were never properly used.

This will require fixing of NavFrames across the wiki, but it's not like it will cause major problems if they're not fixed, so it's not something I intend to revert until after they are fixed. Simply put, collapsible templates and tables made using the NavFrame class will no longer autocollapse by default. Thus, templates which one desires to be collapsed must be set to  and ones that one wishes to autocollapse must be set to. Until they are properly fixed, they will always display in full. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation

Image loss problem
Wikia has recently had some server issues which have resulted in a loss of images. The image pages still exist, but the images will not be rendered as they have been removed from their root location. This issue has affected hundreds of images on the Cyber Nations Wiki. Wikia's response to the matter:

"We are aware of this problem, and our technical staff is working to solve it as soon as possible."

- Wikia Community and Technical Team

Kindly do not tag images which do not display for deletion. Instead, please add them to Category:Images requiring replacement. If you can reupload the image, please do so. Otherwise, please simply leave it alone. Hopefully, Wikia will be able to resolve the error. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation
 * This sucks. Hopefully, Wikia will be able to solve this problem and restore the images. — Pika churin

Images seem to be reappearing now. Let us know if you have any issues with them.

SVG Problems
There is also now a problem rendering transparent backgrounds on SVG images. Wikia has been contacted, but it is currently unknown whether or not this is connected to the image loss problem or not. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation
 * Is there also a problem with the wiki's SVG renderer? This SVG file isn't rendering properly even when I reuploaded it. — Pika churin
 * The little speaker icon was rendering improperly too, but I reverted to an older version and it worked. I'll pass that flag along to Uberfuzzy (he set up a test page here).   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation

Did you hear anything back from Wikia yet? — Pika churin
 * I was assured it was being looked into. I certainly hope it is.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:63, Quintidi, 5 Pluviôse CCXVIII

Use of war flags
There has never been a standard for use of war flags or normal flags on wiki war pages. I feel that the primary purpose of flags is to be quick/easy identifiers, and that therefore we should have a policy to ALWAYS use ONLY the primary flag for an alliance on all wiki pages, since that is the flag most people are accustomed to seeing. War flags should only be used in alliance announcements on the forum, and except for alliance information pages should never be seen on the wiki. Thoughts? -CirrusOfMalla (talk &bull; contribs) 22:59, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * While there is no official policy, war flags are almost always used as identifiers on war articles, and I think it should stay that way. War flags for war articles, alliance flags elswhere would be my proposal.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 9:60, Tridi, 13 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * War flags aren't the same "quick/easy identifiers" as a regular alliance flag, but at the same time, I see no harm in using them. The alliances obviously made them with the intent to be used, and they do stand out a bit more in war articles, often much more "show-offish" than the regular flags. Basically, they look pretty. They make the war articles look nicer and give them a bit of a difference from the ordinary. I like them.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     23:06, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Need help adding "terms" to alliance war infobox
Too many people think "white peace" means with "nobody won", which is not correct. White peace merely means there were no terms and the two sides agreed to a ceasefire; it does not mean one side might not have completely owned the other.

As such, the alliance war infobox needs to be modified so that below "result" there is a new line for "terms", so it is clear that whether or not there was a victor and whether or not there were terms are two separate questions.

I started to make this change, but my knowledge of wiki code is fairly basic and with the complicated formatting of the alliance war infobox, I couldn't make it work to my satisfaction (for example, I don't know how to make it an optional field, which it ought to be since ongoing wars have no terms).

If someone will help modify the infobox as suggested, I will be happy to go through each of the major wars and populate the new field.

-CirrusOfMalla (talk &bull; contribs) 15:24, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * An optional field can be accomplished with a conditional, which I'm pretty sure I can work out. However, I'm not sure of the need myself. A white peace is just a ceasefire. No one "wins," even if one side did trounce the other. The article itself should say who was the superior party of the two and who accomplished their objectives with the need for another field.  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     16:16, February 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Accomplishing your objective is the definition of winning a war. If your objective is to trounce your enemy, then you've won the war even if you give them white peace at the end of it. If your objective is to impose harsh terms, then a white peace isn't a victory for you. This is why it's important to differentiate between the result of the fighting and the result of peace negotiations. They just aren't the same thing.


 * As for need, the whole point of infoboxes is to present the most important information about a conflict in a manner that doesn't require reading through paragraphs of text. If one side trounces the other, that is one of the most important pieces of information available. We should not require people to parse through a bunch of text to know whether a war ended in stalemate or victory for one side, which is what the current system requires. If we were happy with providing key information in the text, why have infoboxes at all? -CirrusOfMalla (talk &bull; contribs) 16:55, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no need for a new field. What you've recently done on Eight Minute War more than serves the purpose.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:80, Quintidi, 15 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Also, if you do want to make a terms section, please don't alter war infoboxes as if it exists until after you actually get it working. Your edits have all been reverted for the time being as they make the pages display even less correct information than they did before <_<   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:90, Quintidi, 15 Pluviôse CCXVIII

Update on SVG problems and Special:Outbound
An update from the Community team:

"The Special:Outbound is a temporary config problem, I'm poking people about fixing it ASAP right now.

We're working on fixing the transparency problem also. We believe it is svg to png converter software on one of the new image servers. I will bump this problem also.

Sorry about the problems and confusion they may be causing."

- Uberfuzzy

Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:24, Sextidi, 26 Pluviôse CCXVIII
 * Transparency in SVG files is back! :D  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    02:16, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, for the most part. Many need re-upload, and some thumbnails are still affected.  It should correct in a few days though... hopefully.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:97, Nonidi, 29 Ventôse CCXVIII

Email issues
Recently, those users that have email notification enabled may (or may not) have noticed that Wikia's email system has been acting up, sending or not sending the appropriate emails apparently arbitrarily. I have a feeling this is tied to the recent switchover to followed pages from the watchlist system. Until they've got it sorted out, users who rely on email notifications will want to keep a close eye on their watchlist to ensure they don't miss anything. The watchlist can still be viewed at Special:Watchlist, and I've added a link to it in the toolbox in the left-hand menu. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 6:60, Duodi, 2 Prairial CCXVIII

Portal namespace
A discussion is currently open regarding the creation of a portal namespace. Please join the conversation at Cyber Nations Wiki talk:Village Pump/Portal namespace and make your voice heard! Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 7:01, Duodi, 2 Prairial CCXVIII

Time for a change?
Let's face it. Our beloved wiki has a serious image problem. People no longer view this wonderful place as a bastion of knowledge and history but as a biased and unreliable cesspool. While you and I know this is not the case, it begs the question; what good is a great library when the masses refuse to partake in its knowledge? Let us think on what the essence of history is: A clear and nonbiased source. Without this, history is worthless. Lately, the history on this wiki has been subject to the biases of our well-intentioned but harmful friend, Michael von Preußen. While his work and dedication to the cause is admirable, it is my opinion and I'm sure the opinion of the silent majority as well that having somebody who goes to great lengths to mask their affinity for the NSDAP is detrimental to the wiki's reputation. Who cares about the wiki's reputation? Well I normally wouldn't but the wiki's reputation directly affects the number of people who contribute to it. The more people that contribute to it, the more diverse and interesting it's content becomes. Having somebody who would be arrested for wearing their favorite armband in Germany is stifling the community. Let me make this clear. I have nothing but respect for Mike's dedication and obvious love for this wiki. But even the best laid plans can go wrong. Who is with me on this? Chief Savage (talk &bull; contribs) 02:14, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

I have to say that I support this. The average user clearly does not respect the administration staff, who they had no role in selecting. It is high time a democratic election be held to select administrators, and ensure the wiki is an unbiased resource, instead of the site dominated by the interests of a select group of people. It is telling that almost every edit that takes place is immediately reverted or otherwise changed by Michael von Preussen. I come here to find information created by the entire community, not just him and the other admins. I believe most people are in agreement with me. Bring democracy to the CN Wiki. Soviet Canuckistan (talk &bull; contribs) 02:18, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree 100% with that said above, return freedom to the wiki. Denjak (talk &bull; contribs) 02:21, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

It is much more telling to me that at this very moment, MvP is asking his government if they can roll \m/, Chief Savage Man's alliance. Why are you trying to silence the people, Michael? Soviet Canuckistan (talk &bull; contribs) 02:30, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was hoping to make a constructive and positive change here but now I'm getting threatened with war. Not just me but my entire alliance. This is telling of just how far this community has fallen from its ideals of open and free discussion among wiki users to an autocracy by a very biased man. Chief Savage (talk &bull; contribs) 02:33, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the above sentiments. Michael von Prus(ß)sia's dedication to the wiki is certainly above average, at least in the sense of any relatively minor or insignificant wikia project. However, the entire purpose of a wiki is the facilitation of the collection and sharing of group knowledge, rather than the facilitation of the power mania of a few wiki administrators. Especially when we consider the function that the wiki serves - that of the main, accepted source of all Cybernations information (there have been numerous debates regarding this precedent, I will provide irrefutable evidence if challenged), does it not make sense to have wiki administrators who represent the community? I can argue, and know that I say this with all due respect, that a Communist-Nazi Jewish anti-Zionist Canadian anti-Canadian probably does not carry the same realistic, reasonable, and open worldview that the majority of the Cybernations population does.

Let us take into consideration Mr. (I apologize if the subject in question detests the typical bourgeois honorifics of the petty capitalist class) von Prussia's consistent decision to limit freedom of expression and indeed consistently oppose inclusionist policy while at the same time maintaining a ridiculously long and exceedingly irrelevant series of articles regarding his nation, offensive fascist philosophy, and questionable taste in Japanese skinema.

It seems important that the community take a democratic approach (and I know the phrase "democratic" will certainly offend Mr. von Prussia) to selecting a new, universally respected wiki administrator, so help me God. --Vilien (talk &bull; contribs) 04:00, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Response
I will try to make this as short and clear as possible. First, I have no affinity for, allegiance to, nor do I support the NSDAP or any related parties, groups, or organizations. I think that I've made that perfectly clear in all my roleplays on this wiki and elsewhere. However, this is hardly the point, even though it is slanderous and quite possibly libelous for you to accuse me of such with no proof whatsoever. I would also argue that bringing my real-life political beliefs, whatever they may be, into a discussion about my conduct on the Wiki is as ridiculous as it is inappropriate, as is bringing my "questionable taste in Japanese skinema" into the discussion. Since I'm certain you all know where this post is going, I will be frank here: my political, economic, and social values, and my media taste, is not anyone's goddamned business.

Furthermore, to say that every edit that is made is reverted or otherwise changed by me is as astonishing as it is inaccurate. Yes, I revert vandal edits and change or revert edits that violate the Manual of Style, which, incidentally, was democratically voted on by the active wiki community (as was the portal namespace, as Soviet Canuckistan knows full-well, having voted on it himself). I hardly think this is out-of-line with my duties as a Wiki administrator. As Chief Savage has all but blatantly taken responsibility for the recent attacks on the wiki, posting this message which assault my political beliefs after every one of my pages is vandalized with messages callng me a "wikihitler", "facist", and quoting NSDAP propaganda, all after an ultimatum was delivered to me demanding my resignation, I will certainly see that he is taught that waging war on a wiki is not an acceptable way to protest an editor's actions, no matter how wrong they are or how wrong he believes them to be.

Now, while I try to keep my edits on this wiki as neutral as possible, as should all editors, I think it's certainly telling that the three first people to lodge complaints here are from \m/ and MK, alliances which have displayed nothing but hatred towards me both IC and OOC, as well as, in the case of MK, had numerous edit disputes with here. The hate threads about me on MK's forums have not gone unnoticed, either. Because of all of these... well, what I'm certain all of the above posters would deem "coincidences"... I am more than a little amused and irritated by this entire situation.

I'm also curious as to how our initial poster can clarify that people see the Wiki (now more than ever) as biased. I certainly found bias when I arrived here, and at that time, it did seem to have a reputation for being biased. Perhaps it still has that reputation now, I don't know. As an administrator I try to keep the discussions I have about the Wiki to a minimum outside of it. However, to state that it's somehow my fault that we have such an image is, in my opinion, putting far too much store in the topics stored at the Castle Hall. I have worked with both sides of treaty spectrums during wars in an attempt to keep war articles as neutral as possible. And yes, I have taken up issues with alliances whose articles are biased. Deal with it. Don't call me biased simply because I ask you not to bias your own articles. The Manual of Style has said long before I arrived that articles are to be unbiased; I don't think enforcing that is such a crime.

As for my comments regarding \m/, I am apparently incapable of making simple jokes in a private member channel without it being broadcast for the entire world to see. If you want to take such comments seriously, that is more than fine by me. You are free to exercise your stupidity as much as you'd like.

Regardless, the bottom line is this:


 * 1) It is obvious to anyone reading this that Chief Savage has taken responsibility for the attacks on this Wiki earlier tonight. As such, he will be permanently banned.  Although I cannot force them to, I have confidence that the other administrators of this Wiki will see how inappropriate his actions were and will uphold this ban.
 * 2) Given my service to this wiki is apparently unappreciated, I will be immediately resigning my adminship here. I will certainly not, as demanded by Chief Savage in his ultimatum to me, delete all my articles, and if any future administrator decides to do so, I will certainly protest it in the most vehement of terms.

Oh, and for your information, invading my alliance's private member channel is wholly inappropriate. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:98, Primidi, 11 Messidor CCXVIII
 * I take offense at your entirely unrealistic accusations that any of the charges leveled against you are due to any sort of in-game political rivalries or disagreements. I think we all know that I have no love for \m/ (being their most vocal, intelligent, and respected detractor) nor do I have any respect or affiliation with the Mushroom Kingdom, a detestably immoral and incapable alliance. These statements have been made in full for the benefit of wiki-users and should not be construed as anything other than the truth. I admire your personal strength and courage of wiki-conviction in your decision to step down as admin, I hope a suitable replacement will be found. Good luck, sir. --Vilien (talk &bull; contribs) 04:55, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * In addition, your ban of Chief Savage Man is absolutely ridiculous. You have only the scantest circumstantial evidence of wrongdoing, none of which is actually valid in any sense of the word, and seem to have banned him rather because you were offended by his commentary. I sincerely hope another administrator rectifies this issue and restores freedom to an innocent wiki contributor. --Vilien (talk &bull; contribs) 05:04, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice job, you trolling pieces of shit. I hope your kind has fun ruining the Internet, one game at a time. I wonder why CN's membership has been steadily declining? You could at least have left the wiki alone as a place to have fun and collect information. But I suppose you're never satisfied, are you?  Bobogoobo  -  Talk  -  Nation  14:42, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 (ET)
 * That language is absolutely not necessary. Any further verbal abuse will result in a one day ban. --Vilien (talk &bull; contribs) 21:08, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you (Bobgoobo) seriously claiming that CyberNations' membership is dropping because some one in the wiki said things that you do not agree with? If you want "a place to have fun" may I suggest your very own blog in the game forum, where you can satisfy all your dictatorial urges with not a care in the world.Louisa (talk &bull; contribs) 07:53, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

There is no "trolling" going on here. We are merely advocating for freedom and impartiality here on the CN wiki, making it a better place for all. Did you like wikifascism? People like you should be locked up for wikicrimes. Soviet Canuckistan (talk &bull; contribs) 19:25, June 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just trying to make sure I'm following. He comes here asking for a democratic process to be done, is _banned_ for this, AND you're declaring war on his alliance (unless this changed?)... and the ban was for something you don't even have real proof against, just you deciding "OH IT'S HIM, KK"? How is that even SLIGHTLY democratic? --Archanis (talk &bull; contribs) 20:42, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

This ridiculousness obviously needs some clarification:
 * 1) Calling my accusations against Chief Savage baseless or speculative is insulting to everyone with half a brain. It is absolutely impossible to put an anonymous user vandalizing all my pages to call me a nazi and demanding my resignation, followed by a formal request demanding my resignation and calling me a Nazi by Chief Savage, down to coincidence.  Anyone with enough brain cells to form a synapse can see this.
 * 2) If I had really only banned Chief Savage over offense at what he posted, Soviet Canuckistan and Vilien would also be banned. This is not the case.  However, I maintain that my political beliefs, whatever they are, whether you agree with them or not, have absolutely no place in a discussion such as this.  Furthermore, calling me a nazi is slanderous and a personal attack, which is more than enough reason to ban anyone temporarily if not indefinitely.
 * 3) Neither I nor my alliance has ever threatened \m/ with war over this. I maintain, even if the other posters here do not, that the wiki and the rest of CN should be kept as separate as possible.  I don't know why anyone with any intelligence would consider that it is appropriate to take a joke made in a private channel as serious military intelligence.
 * 4) With regards to articles I have made about my nation: no where has roleplaying ever been banned on this Wiki. Many nations roleplay through it: take a look at Botha's articles on Transvaal and its extensive history.  There's way more information there than there is about my nation in total, but apparently, because I roleplay as a nation whose ideology you don't agree with, mine is "ridiculously long and irrelevant".
 * 5) With regards to democratic election of administrators: there seems to be a misconcption that my resignation is an endorsement of such. I assure you, it is not.  The Cyber Nations Wiki uses the exact same method Wikipedia and most other wikis use: a community discussion followed by bureaucratic oversight.  I personally see no reason to change this, but as I will no longer be an administrator here, I'm not going to comment further.  How administrators are selected is now in the hands of the bureaucrats.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:85, Primidi, 11 Messidor CCXVIII
 * Okay so what you have, then, isn't a baseless case against CSM. No, what you have is really, REALLY flimsy circumstantial evidence. As you, yourself, said earlier, you're aware of MK's multiple "hate on" threads with you as the main topic. So isn't it just MAYBE possible that, since more than one person has read that thread (and CSM isn't even a member of MK), someone over THERE decided to screw with your wiki? And then, subsequently, CSM just decided he didn't like you and wanted you gone? Your evidence wouldn't last thirty five seconds on friggin judge judy, let alone in a court of law. What makes you think it's good enough HERE? --Archanis (talk &bull; contribs) 01:26, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for Michael's "resignation" to be put into effect; he is still listed as an administrator by the Special:ListUsers function. Voytek (talk &bull; contribs) 08:29, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * As am I. When I made this account the other day just to respond to this, the welcome message I got was still from Michael, even though supposedly he had already resigned.

Well, I hope you're happy everyone. Welcome to the new CN Wiki and it's going to be a bumpy ride down into hell. I for one will miss the most active Admin this wiki has ever had. Well done, you can say goodbye to this wiki. - Arrnea (talk &bull; contribs) 14:32, June 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well most active in recent times definitely. I used to be pretty active like him. Anyways after looking this stuff over I hardly see anything constructive or any valid complaints. All I mainly see are large diatribes full of personal attacks, insults, and claims of bias without any real proof. Most of the bias I see seems to be coming from the other parties in this mess. Anyways the process for admin selection will remain the same as always and hopefully another active and contributing member of the wiki will come around eventually and apply to be one. Until then it is very sad that we lost such an active and contributing member of the wiki due to the actions of a few with what seems to be some sort of grudge. Lol pie (talk &bull; contribs) 15:29, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

The same oligarchical method for choosing admins as always? Wikifascism. Plain and simple. You'll be hearing from me.Soviet Canuckistan (talk &bull; contribs) 16:54, June 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just in case I'm missing something here: the general CN membership doesn't get any say in who becomes a moderator on the forums or in-game, nor does the CN membership even know the moderators' identities. It does not have any say in how Coldfront's run, or who becomes an IRCop there, despite being widely used by CN alliances and members. All in all, a community discussion to establish consensus, such as this Wiki has in place, grants more power to the CN membership in choosing administrators than in perhaps any other CN-related community.  Furthermore, we have consensus-based policies, such as the way the Manual of Style was voted on, or the way the implementation of the Portal namespace was voted on.  And yet somehow in your mind, consensus-based policies and administrators chosen by community consensus is "fascism"?  The very fact that you've been able to bring this up here without facing repercussions sort of disproves your own point.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 7:20, Duodi, 12 Messidor CCXVIII
 * It has now been roughly two days since you resigned, yet you still retain the position of sysop. When were you planning on getting around to making good on your word, exactly? Voytek (talk &bull; contribs) 15:57, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I cannot remove my user rights; only a bureaucrat can do that. If you look through my contributions you shall notice that aside from de-protecting some personal pages, I have not performed any administrative actions, so I hardly see what difference it makes to you or anyone else.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:15, Tridi, 13 Messidor CCXVIII
 * I am aware of your inability to change your own usergroup, I used to be a sysop on another wiki for a long time. My question is more aimed at what action (if any) you have taken to make the bureaucrats of this wiki aware of your desire to step down so that they actually know what needs to be done. Voytek (talk &bull; contribs) 03:54, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean aside from posting my resignation on the central community noticeboard for the entire Wiki? I'm sorry, but I've done my part here.  If you're dissatisfied with the attention paid to this topic by the local bureaucrats, I suggest you take it up with them.  Right, I've already posted here far more than I intended to.  Good day.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:74, Quartidi, 14 Messidor CCXVIII

These so-called "bureaucrats" are failing the wikicommunity at large. Perhaps they should be the next target of the people's revolution. Long live the victory of people's war. 72.12.136.12 05:16, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Says the person who essentially did nothing compared to the bureaucrats (s)he's accusing.  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    20:32, Friday, 9 July 2010 (ET)

Template:Fquote
There's a little matter on Template talk:Fquote I'd like some input on, but as it's a brand new template not yet being used by anyone but me, nobody's probably got it on their watchlists and such to know there's a discussion. Basically, I'm here asking for some input as this page is more likely to get noticed. So if you've got an opinion, please feel free to go over there and share. -  Locke   Talk  •  Alestor     02:38, Saturday, 2 October 2010 (ET)

Advanced Warning
Greetings CN Wiki,

According to this blog post by Sannse, a Wikia Staff member, all Wikia wikis will be switching over to a new skin 20 October 2010 (logged-in users can still use the current skin until 3 November 2010). Based on what I've read so far, this was supposed to disable all MediaWiki pages; hence everything that relies on a MediaWiki page (such as templates), will probably go haywire on the switchover date. For the benefit of the wiki, I think editors should switch over to the new skin as soon as it's available (in three days) and see its effects on the wiki.

For anyone interested, Wikia has complied a FAQ about the new skin. Pikachurin   Talk  •  Contribs    21:58, Sunday, 3 October 2010 (ET)
 * Thanks Pika, I totally forgot to say something here D:. So yeah, hopefully it doesn't take too long to get used to that, if it's possible to get used to it. :/ Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 22:16, Sunday, 3 October 2010 (ET)


 * Wikia Sad.gif.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:96, Tridi, 13 Vendémiaire CCXIX
 * Oh hey, Wikia decides to push out an update that will mess up how the wiki works; business as usual then? [[File:Pacman.gif]]   Locke    talk    contribs    nation     02:22, Monday, 4 October 2010 (ET)
 * I've taken the liberty of switching over to the new skin. I don't like the reduced space for content, it misaligned or broke a number of templates (such as navboxes and angle icons). I also don't like how it adds the name of whichever user added a picture in an article. Overall, I think it is annoying and terrible. :(  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    18:51, Wednesday, 6 October 2010 (ET)
 * I tried it myself, and...yeah, it breaks a lot of things. -_- ~   Locke    talk    contribs    nation     20:35, Wednesday, 6 October 2010 (ET)
 * I'm looking at it now, and I hate it already. Is there anyway to get rid of that stupid nav bar on the right hand side of the page? It's squishing everything together and it just looks horrible in general. Definitely a fail move by Wikia. I've noticed that the hide/show function no longer works to. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 02:53, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The "hide/show" feature doesn't work because all CSS and JS customizations are disabled.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:21, Sextidi, 16 Vendémiaire CCXIX
 * That's a problem, is there anyway of bringing it back or are we stuck without it? -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 02:57, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * They appear to not only have disabled it and made it impossible to turn back on, but they've also made a new customization policy making customizing individual wikis a violation of the terms of use.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:27, Sextidi, 16 Vendémiaire CCXIX

I've gone to some of the other wikias to see what they're doing, places include Star Wars Wikia and the WoW Wikia. Is there anything in those two (or other wikias) that we can use here to help with this transition, or anything else? -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 04:01, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The main thing that can and will need to be done is that class styles specified in MediaWiki:Common.css for userboxes, infoboxes, and navboxes will need to be ported as style attributes to the templates they affect. I honestly don't know how much more it will be possible to do, nor do I have any intention to learn much.  I'll be helping Pikachurin get the Clannad Wiki working to some degree, but more personal wikis I maintain will be moving off-Wikia.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:75, Sextidi, 16 Vendémiaire CCXIX

I just moved over to test it out and I am not impressed with what I am seeing, the reduced space and the breaks and the amount of effort it will take to rework most of the stuff we have put years into is going to be a pain, almost wonder if it is worth trying to fix it all or not. Brennan  Talk  •  Brennan     07:21, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

For everyone's information, you're not the only ones ticked off. Enjoy the backlash, Wikia. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:46, Sextidi, 16 Vendémiaire CCXIX

In addition to things mentioned above, links do not turn a different color after you've visited the page, and external links look the same as internal ones. I also don't like this font/color combination because the text is grayish. At least the buttons are blueish now. Also, user pages are now "profiles" <_< I also don't like the toolbar thing at the bottom, partly because why is there so much empty space on it? Not to mention moving everything around so all the position-dependent things are messed up. Sure I'll get used to it if I use it for a while, but it's so much worse. So yeah, me no likey... :S Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 21:17, Thursday, 7 October 2010 (ET)

I must say, I changed to the new skin for about 10 seconds before changing back. Not only is it an extreme change visually, but it is far more complex looking than the nice, simple Monaco version. I also don’t understand why they won’t give individual wikis the option to remain fully Monaco, that just seems like they are asking for users to leave to me. I guess I'll take a full snapshot of my nation page before this hideous change comes into effect so that I can look upon it as it is supposed to look. I greatly dislike the new skin.

--  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   10:25, Saturday, 9 October 2010 EST


 * "I've gone to some of the other wikias to see what they're doing, places include Star Wars Wikia and the WoW Wikia. Is there anything in those two (or other wikias) that we can use here to help with this transition, or anything else?" ~ Imperial Empire

I decided to check both of these out, and I found some pretty useful information. First, WoW Wikia is moving to a new site. Second, Star Wars Wikia is trying to find every way around it. Third, Monobook will remain; according to a wikia staff member, the reason they are scraping Monaco is because it would cost too much to run both Oasis and Monaco.

I just recently checked out Monobook, and it is fairly close to Monaco. Thus, come November 3, I am going to use Monobook instead of Oasis. However, this brings up a new question of how we could format articles for both Oasis and Monobook. As well, do you think we could change the default to Monobook come November 3? Does anyone think we should leave and try to find a new wiki hoster?

--  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   22:00, Saturday, 9 October 2010 EST
 * Monobook cannot be set as the default skin for the wiki, however. It's also worth noting, while I'm here, that the main campaigner for moving Wikisimpsons off-Wikia has now apparently been banned by a Wikia staff member.
 * While I'm here, I'll share an email that was sent to another Wikisimpsons administrator by ShoutWiki when s/he inquired about moving:
 * Hello there Wikisimpsons administrators,

Firstly I would like to thank you for contacting ShoutWiki and for considering us as an alternative to Wikia. We are aware that many people are rather upset about Wikia's plans to force yet another skin on their wikis, which causes extra work to the administrators of a wiki. A database dump would indeed be an easy way to import all your articles to ShoutWiki. We also have an extension that gives users the ability to import their user account to ShoutWiki; this process is very transparent and users practically won't even notice the difference as they can log in with their Wikia credentials. Attracting contributors to the wiki would be up to you, but if you can get most (maybe even all) of the admins to support a move then most of the community might follow. Do take into account though that when you do move, you will most likely lose your adminship on the Wikia wiki and Wikia will continue maintaining their version of your wiki. That has happened to other wikis that have moved off Wikia in the past. On the subject of blogs, ShoutWiki has no plans or intentions to add blogs to wikis. Though, userpages and user subpages work nicely for that purpose. As a matter of fact, some wikis used them in a way similar to blogs before Wikia introduced the blogs.

On ShoutWiki, you can choose the skin from many options, with the classical Monobook being the most popular skin. There are two themes available for Monobook: Dark and Pink. You can test these out on ShoutWiki Hub, for example (see http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=monobook&usetheme=dark and http://www.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=monobook&usetheme=pink). Other available skins are the older Cologne Blue and the newer Modern skin. After we have upgraded our version of the MediaWiki software to 1.16, the Vector skin will also be available. In the future we will also have more skins available as premium (paid) features; including the ever-popular Monaco skin! If you're interested in these, feel free to check out our Premium Examples Wiki at http://premium.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Special:Preferences.

Thank you for your interest in ShoutWiki and we hope to see you editing in the future!"

Regards, -- --Jack Phoenix Customer Support Team, ShoutWiki http://www.shoutwiki.com
 * Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:88, Nonidi, 19 Vendémiaire CCXIX

I'm not sure about a move, I am rather neutral on the subject. There are a number of ups and downs. I wish wikia would just forget the new skin, afterall, what do they have to gain by it? A huge loss of wikias? Not only that, but it'll take a lot of work to format everything for the oasis skin, a skin that will probably be replaced in a year or two.

--  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   22:23, Saturday, 9 October 2010 EST


 * As Pikachurin has noted, they get a lot of bigger, flashier advertisements. And I'm not trying to push for a move (as I don't edit here anymore, I don't exactly care), I just figured I'd pass along information as I got it.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 1:01, Nonidi, 19 Vendémiaire CCXIX


 * Speaking from an NPO-only point of view, the new skin will destroy the way many of our pages look now. Even if we all switch over to the Monobook skin (I don't believe Wikia intends to keep it forever either) then guests will still be confronted with the horrible new look and I severely doubt anyone will seriously want to browse our pages, they're just going to be too compressed and long. If we did move, then we'd need a way to close this wiki. Can it be done? Because having two wikis won't work well. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 11:23, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Deleting all of the pages and then making a soft redirect on every page, and the main page is about the only way that I can think of. Again, do we even want to look into that? --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   07:32, Sunday, 10 October 2010 EST
 * I'm not sure that moving would be worth it. And I don't particularly like Monobook either, but it's better than Oasis. As for guests, we could put a sitenotice so that it would tell everyone how to switch to Monobook, and then things could be consistently formatted for Monobook, assuming people would make the switch. Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 12:52, Sunday, 10 October 2010 (ET)
 * Guests cannot switch to Monobook, though, only logged-in users can. Guests can preview a single page in Monobook, but the minute they click a link, it'd take them back to Oasis.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:14, Nonidi, 19 Vendémiaire CCXIX
 * By guests I meant anyone who visits the wiki, sorry :P. And we could make it clear that they need to register to switch. Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 17:09, Sunday, 10 October 2010 (ET)
 * While Wikia would not close a wiki, by making use of the main page, AJAX popups on pages, etc., we could make it clear enough that the wiki has moved. It may even be possible to make the pages autoredirect to the new wiki for visitors with JavaScript installed.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:16, Nonidi, 19 Vendémiaire CCXIX


 * Couldn't we make a disclaimer on all edits made by guests that the official skin of this wiki would be Monobook? As well, we could include that in all welcome messages, and even the main page.
 * --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   19:47, Sunday, 10 October 2010 EST
 * I doubt everyone is going to register an account just so they can browse the wiki though. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 03:40, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally think it'll be better if we moved to another host like ShoutWiki. If the CN community didn't like minor changes being done to their pages under Monaco, I'm pretty sure there's going to be a massive outcry once this is forced on logged out users and everything breaks. However, there's the problem of transitioning to a new host. For example, the community might refuse to move over since it's too much of a bother, or they might continue to use and edit this wiki even after moving over. It also seems we can't delete articles and the like in here to make the transition easier, since Wikia Staff will probably just revert them and ban us. So it's basically a lose-lose situation for us all. <_<  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    20:15, Monday, 11 October 2010 (ET)
 * It comes down to supporting Wikifascism or opposing it, I guess Pacman.gif. Overall, though, I think most people find the Wiki through two places: Google, and the Cyber Nations links page. The second could most likely be easily changed by asking Admin.  Google will be a bit more difficult; however, if we look at wikis that have already moved, such as the Finnish Jedipedia, a  does bring the new one up on the first page of results (though the old one remains more prominent). Given time, however, if the community moves, Google will document the site with more activity.
 * Edit: We also have the ability to use the  magic word on every page to tell search engines not to index them.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:37, Primidi, 21 Vendémiaire CCXIX
 * Only a few active editors have been participating in this discussion. Should we ask the CN community at large via the OWF or just put up a sitenotice here to attract all editors, to get as many opinions as possible? Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 21:42, Monday, 11 October 2010 (ET)
 * @MvP: That's definitely a good idea; however, I'm still concerned about what Wikia Staff might do once they notice what they're doing. We happen to be one of the most largest and most active wikis in Wikia, so they'd definitely try to revert anything we do to ease the transition.
 * @Bobo: Personally, I think we should wait until Wikia forces the skin on everyone and see how the community reacts to it. Starting a discussion in the OWF right now might not be productive. Pacman.gif  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    17:28, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 (ET)
 * Well, perhaps it's better to wait, as you say, and see how people take it. There are a lot of larger wikis than us that are switching, so we'll be able to get some sort of reading on how Wikia reacts to them.  Indeed, Wikisimpsons has already had one administrator blocked, and its sitenotice about a vote on the issue reverted by Sarah Manley for "advertis[ing] a competitive site".  On the other hand, WoWWiki has even been blessed by Wiki Staff commenting on their debate, likely because if that large a community leaves, it's going to send ripple effects through Wikia.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 9:01, Primidi, 21 Vendémiaire CCXIX

While we're discussing the new skin, will someone be willing to make a wordmark for the CN Wiki? It has to be a 250x65 PNG file. Pikachurin   Talk  •  Contribs    21:35, Tuesday, 12 October 2010 (ET)
 * Do you have an example of any existing ones? I may be able to contact someone. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 09:21, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * w:c:clannad:File:Wiki-wordmark.png, w:c:wowwiki:File:Wiki-wordmark.png, and w:c:memoryalpha:File:Wiki-wordmark.png are three good examples.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 3:93, Duodi, 22 Vendémiaire CCXIX

Side note, according to the community forum, js and css need to be at User:username/wikia.js or .css, case sensitive. Looks like some of it didn't work, though...collapsibles for example. And every link looks like an internal link, as I think I mentioned above, which is dumb. Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 19:46, Thursday, 14 October 2010 (ET)

It would appear, by this note, that MediaWiki:Common.css styling may be able to be put into MediaWiki:Wikia.css, but I'm not too sure. I recommend one of the admins test this out. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 5:44, Sextidi, 26 Vendémiaire CCXIX
 * I tried doing that at the Clannad Wiki, but it didn't seem to work.  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    15:32, Sunday, 17 October 2010 (ET)

As everyone is probably going to find out when they come on whenever, Wikia has begun the great change over. I see that they've altered some bits but still not enough to make me happy, the change is still crap. I've switched back to Monoaco for now, however I think guests are stuck on the new skin. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 14:40, October 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hooray. I'm not going to switch back, no point in resisting, need to get accustomed. Although they broke even more stuff this time around. Collapsibles still not working, and now even plainlinks don't work. Also the history dropdown is broken. Meh <_< Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 12:24, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 (ET)
 * Also, I changed the workmark font and size until we get an image, so that it doesn't push the stuff down. I was going to use a better font but it was too big :/ Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 12:43, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 (ET)

So we are staying and formatting everything for Monobook, correct? --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   10:03, Saturday, 23 October 2010 (EST)


 * At present yes, I'm intending to switch to that next. However Wikia haven't given a solid "it's going to stay forever" notice, I have a feel they intend to turn it off at some point as soon as they can and force everyone onto the new skin. Monobook won't be available for guests though.


 * Seems I misundderstood you Dynasty, at present yes we are staying with Wikia, however whilst Monobook remains guests cannot use it, they are forced to use the new skin. I will personally be switching over to Monobook. However I'm not even sure Wikia plans to keep it, they mentioned that it would remain "for now" for places like uncyclopedia.


 * In case anyone is interested, it seems WoW Wikia decided to move off and find another host. They are only waiting for Wikia to give them the image dump, which seems to be taking a while with Wikia may or may not be holding up the process deliberately. To be honest even with the tweaks they've done to it (which I've seen on WoW Wikia just then) the new skin is still rubbish and I continue to hate it. It seems that they went and actually increased the article width on the WoW wiki to try and make them happy to stay, but aren't intending to do it on any other wiki! Sannse has continued to actively post on the WoW wiki though, trying to placate their fears and so on but it doesn't seem to be working. -- Imperial Emperor - Talk 14:34, October 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, stupid Wikia. I support staying, but I think it would be better for everyone to use the new skin so everything looks as similar as possible. It shouldn't be too different besides the fixed width, once I get all the CSS and JS done. While I'm on that topic, anyone have any other changes to suggest? Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 14:57, Saturday, 23 October 2010 (ET)
 * Dynasty, please add a  to the end of your signature, your tags aren't closed and it's causing text after it to continue infinitely.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 7:91, Duodi, 2 Brumaire CCXIX

The CN community hasn't reacted to the change as far as I know, which I find odd (they were up in arms once just because we were editing their pages, so a change this big probably would've started a discussion from non-frequenters). Shall we tell everyone about it? Pikachurin   Talk  •  Contribs    01:05, Sunday, 24 October 2010 (ET)
 * The SOS Brigade has established their own wiki and has began porting their and their members' articles to it, and Sentinal of the Imperial Order today noted her disappointment with the new skin and with Wikia's policies regarding it, and expressed interest in setting the Imperial Order and its nations up a private wiki as well. Aside from that, I've not seen much reaction.  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 2:14, Tridi, 3 Brumaire CCXIX
 * I actually had to use a in my signature, not just a  , but thanks for pointing it out Michael! :D
 * --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   10:50, Sunday, 24 October 2010 (EST)

On a related note, how are we going to deal with the problems caused by Oasis on angle icons? For reference, I'm referring to the use of angle icon and angle icon 2 in other pages, such as Featured article. In the Clannad Wiki, I took care of this problem by turning them into headers. Any other ideas? Pikachurin   Talk  •  Contribs    11:29, Sunday, 24 October 2010 (ET)
 * After I removed all the excess junk from the tops of pages, there is a lot of space between the Edit this page button/dropdown and the talk link (which I made right-aligned and the same size as the page title). So if you want to copy my user CSS you could put them up there. I dunno how the code for those templates works, though. As for the community, I do want to know what they think, but if people don't care enough to comment then I doubt we'd get responses that are more than trolling. Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 14:44, Sunday, 24 October 2010 (ET)
 * Do MediaWiki:Common.css, MediaWiki:Wikia.css, and/or user custom css (since they're all the same) work at all for anyone? I'm done almost everything that I wanted to do with the CSS: fixing what the new skin broke from those, adding a bunch of new stuff, and changing things back to how Monaco looked. So I was thinking I'd create a page for it, explaining everything, how to use it, etc and link to that from the main page information template, user welcome messages, etc, so that people can get as much fixing/changing as they want for their personal pages (so that nothing goes against the ToU). Once I'm done everything I want to do with that, I'll move on to doing the same stuff for JS. Hopefully it's as easy :P. Thoughts? Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 04:28, Monday, 25 October 2010 (ET)
 * MediaWiki:Common.css and MediaWiki:Wikia.css doesn't seem to be having any effect on me, though I'm not sure about custom CSS for users.  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    00:01, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 (ET)

Dunno why I asked about user css, of course that works :P. Anyways, HOREH SHET. Found on here that you can, in fact, make the page content take up the space the sidebar used to, if you remove that. It fixes everything! It's a little bit less wide, but not very much. So to do that, add this to your user css (User:Username/wikia.css): .WikiaMainContent { float:none; width:auto; }

.WikiaRail { display: none !important; } And your dreams will come true. It messes up the header a bit but that can be fixed. Hooray for people who know stuff! Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 15:52, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 (ET)

Arbitrary Break 1
Okay, Locke noticed something excessively strange earlier, and so I tested it out, and, lo and behold, got the same result. When I am logged out, even in Oasis, the MediaWiki:Common.js javascript that makes collapsible tables work seems to be enabled (screenshot 1). However, when logged in, it is not (screenshot 2). I'm at a loss to explain this. Michael von Preußen  voicemail  •  nation   @ 0:42, Septidi, 7 Brumaire CCXIX

That is exceedingly odd. It must have something to do with the page code (code made by wikia), since they probably use two different sets of code for vistors and those signed in. Maybe if wikia didn't ruin all of their wikis by forcing us to use Oasis, then we wouldn't have this problem. :P --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   16:58, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 (EST)

City/Provincial Infoboxes
I really don't like how the City and Provincial infoboxes cause the flags to be uncentered and lean to the left. Not only does it look bad when there isn't a coat of arms/symbol to go next to it, but it also makes the flag look less important. I don't remember these infoboxes always being this way, therefore, is there any way we can make one that doesn't cause the flags to go to the left when there isn't an additional symbol?

--  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   15:57, Monday, 25 October 2010 (EST)
 * Could you get me a screenshot? I did most of the work on designing those, so would be in the best place to fix them, but on articles such as Besaid the flag looks perfectly centered to me.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:35, Quartidi, 4 Brumaire CCXIX
 * Same here; the Besadian looks perfectly centered for me.  Pikachurin    Talk  •  Contribs    00:01, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 (ET)

Here is a screenshot: File:Ex.png Feel free to delete it once it has served its use of showing you guys what I mean. --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   16:36, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 (EST)
 * That is... exceedingly odd ._. What browser are you using, may I ask? Also, I've made some code changes, can you [ purge the page] and tell me if it's still happening?  Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 8:60, Quintidi, 5 Brumaire CCXIX
 * It is fixed. However, for future references, I am using Internet Explorer.
 * --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   19:14, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 (EST)
 * That would explain it. IE has a habit of seemingly arbitrarily recognizing code (though admittedly, that code was less-than-well formatted). Anyway, glad it's fixed now.   Michael von Preußen   voicemail  •  nation   @ 9:71, Quintidi, 5 Brumaire CCXIX

Ding, dong, Monaco is dead
Monaco has now been removed from the skin choices. Therefore, I've created CN:CSS and added links to it from the main page information template, the user welcome message, and the monaco template. Feel free to leave a message if you disagree with any of these additions or if you have any other comments. I have end-of-term vacation coming in a couple weeks, so hopefully I will finally be able to get to fixing the JS during that. Happy editing, Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 17:34, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 (ET)
 * I don't notice any changes, thus, could you please check to see if I did it correctly. Thanks!
 * That is a thousand times better! Thanks a lot!
 * Edit: RIP Monaco
 * --  Dynasty   Talk  •  Grand Besaid   16:29, Thursday, 4 November 2010 (EST)

Navigation menu
The wiki navigation menu ("Cyber Nations," "Browse by category," "Top content," and "Community") at the top of all pages will need to be redone due to Oasis. There is a maximum of four dropdowns, and there can only be one level of elements in each dropdown; all the rest does not show up. The current full code can be found here. I would like community input on what to include and where to put it for a revised version. Bobogoobo | Talk | Nation 18:05, Thursday, 11 November 2010 (ET)